Keeping track of a solo's length

A place where discuss about secrets, tips and suggestions for practicing on congas and to improve your skill and technique ...

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby Thomas Altmann » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:05 pm

This takes a turn towards a "(No) Clave in Jazz" thread now. I am not interested to discuss this subject extensively, so I don't feel like opening such a thread. However, I once made one CD full of non-Latin Jazz tunes for David that show a clear clave inclination. Mark Levine got hold of it and told me he'd be using it in his classes. I could fill at least another CD with similar examples.

I found out that I am almost rating straight-ahead Jazz players, especially pianists, by their rhythmic concept, meaning whether they think 2-bar or just from one chord change to the next. The players who harmonize best with my style do have a 2-bar-concept (trying to avoid the judgement that 2-bar-feel players are "better musicians").

- Dancers (tap or Lindy) always count in 8-pulse cycles, 8 pulses referring to two 4/4 measures.
- One of the main rhythmic influences on early Jazz, New Orleans parade beats, are two-bar structured based on a 2-3 clave feel.

Undisputably, neither the clave consciousness nor the clave mechanics in Jazz are as refined as in Latin-, especially Cuban music. The same is true for Brazilian music, although in Brazilian music the clave consciousness is much easier to identify.

But compare this status of clave influence to early forms of Cuban music, such as the whole Contradanza-Danza-Danzón tradition, or Oriente style Son like Changüí. And check out some Los Van-Van stuff, which at times is out of clave. After all, the differences from supposed non-Clave music appear to be gradual, not principal.

Thomas
Last edited by Thomas Altmann on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:21 am

Hi Thomas,
My son plays tenor sax and he has recently become a jazz fan. I've been pulling out my old jazz cassettes from the 70s and early 80s and rediscovering music I used to listen to all the time.

I was reminded that during the 70s, Herbie Hancock would often vamp on obvious clave-based patterns behind solos. The patterns were often son or rumba clave with a note added or removed. Back in the day, I just heard them as funky vamps. These vamps don't appear to have anything to do with the funk-type parts played by the bass and drums though. For example, the kit could be playing a funk pattern that we would clearly interpret as 2-3, while Herbie plays obvious 3-2 phrase. Still, it's interesting to me how African American music has instinctively drawn from clave-type patterns for funky phrases. I would argue in fact that funk was rhythmically speaking, an instinctive move towards clave-type figures. It's as if the music wants to "come home" to that important African structure.

Sorry for going off-topic.

-David
User avatar
davidpenalosa
 
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: CA

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby alabubba » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:29 pm

davidpenalosa wrote:
Sorry for going off-topic.

-David


Not really off topic at all...the clave is an important structural key to fitting in as regards to determining the entrance and exit points.
Bob

vids
User avatar
alabubba
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:41 am
Location: Alabama

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby jorge » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:17 pm

I find it interesting that in Abakua music, which definitely has a strong clave structure, both the bonko phrases and the dancers' phrasing stretch beyond the 2 bar clave structure, sometimes by non-integer amounts. Often the phrases start on different beats of the clave for each phrase, and end on different beats of the clave. One phrase can flow into another almost without regard to the 2 bar clave limits. It is often difficult or impossible to tell when one phrase ends and another starts. It is not just random, and it is not due to players and dancers who don't know what they are doing. The bonko part is usually extremely "in clave" with very tight and repeatable relationship to the clave and all the other parts. When the patterns are repeated, they are often similar to the previous phrase, just not starting and ending on the parts of the clave that we are used to. A lot of this seems to be driven by the dancer.

Thomas, do you have any examples of VanVan tunes with parts that are out of clave?
jorge
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:47 am
Location: Teaneck, NJ

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby Tonio » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:49 pm

There is alot of "out of clave" tunes out there. Normally not the folklorico stuff, but after say 70-'s where many artists fused into different modern styles with jazz etc. Some of the master composers will say did that on purpose, but in many cases that I have heard a cierre, is to get back on clave. Alot of the cierre's are just a break in the sections, but many seem to be there in disguise to clean up that odd measure to bring every instrument back on clave.

T
User avatar
Tonio
 
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:59 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:41 pm

Can we start another thread for the clave discussion? I'm mostly interested in
technique's for keeping track of the length of ones solo in jazz and non-folkloric
music. I think it's an important topic and not necessarily connected to clave.

There are certainly a ton of threads already on clave. I would love to hear more about
how people keep track of their solos, and the techniques they use to be able intuitively
keep track of 8, 16 and 32 bars of music.
User avatar
bongosnotbombs
 
Posts: 2865
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:17 am
Location: San Francisco, Ca

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:01 am

Jorge,
I share your fascination with bonkó. The basic attack-point pattern of most lead drum parts is one clave cycle. However all the lead drum parts I’m aware of are expected to also play longer phrases that span two, three and even more claves. I think most of these longer phrases correspond, or at one time corresponded to specific dance steps. Bonkó is no exception. A lot of bonkó phrase begin on the subdivision immediately before beat 1. What starting point in clave are you more “used to?” I assume you are referring to rhythms other than abakuá.

Tonio,
I am not unaware of any folkloric dance drumming from Africa, Cuba or Brazil that breaks clave. Dance drumming is drumming that accompanies dance, so the bata’s oru igbodu would not be included in this category.

The breaking of clave in popular music is another matter. There are examples of clave being broken in some of the earliest recordings of the son from the 1920s. Composers had varying degrees of clave consciousness and it was usually up to the rhythm section (often the drummers) to fix any discrepancies. I guess as far as your listening experience goes, some of those “clave band-aids” (cierres) don’t do the trick.

The clave concept was developed in popular music, but there are examples of breaking clave since the music was first recorded. On the other hand, in folkloric dance drumming the concepts of “clave theory” are not a part of the tradition, and yet the music remains 100% in-clave. That’s ironic.
-David
User avatar
davidpenalosa
 
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: CA

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:54 am

bongosnotbombs wrote:I would love to hear more about how people keep track of their solos, and the techniques they use to be able intuitively keep track of 8, 16 and 32 bars of music.


I have always refused to count during my solos. It distracts from being in my solo state of mind. Through experience I am able to reasonably intuit 16 and 32 bars of music, but I don't consider it up to me to keep track. The band just needs to come in where they are supposed to come in it will be fine. If I'm taking a conga solo the trap drummer can also give me a little cue before the end.

I prefer not to solo over a long series of jazz changes. However, when I do solo over several jazz choruses I keep the "head" in my head the whole time. Unlike counting, I don't have a problem soloing while "singing" a jazz head to myself. In fact, that's a technique that horn soloists are encouraged to use in jazz improv. classes.

I re-posed my clave comments under a new "clave thread" post in the "Open Discussion" section, in case anybody wants to continue with those issues.
-David
User avatar
davidpenalosa
 
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:44 pm
Location: CA

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby Tonio » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:12 am

bongosnotbombs wrote:Can we start another thread for the clave discussion? I'm mostly interested in
technique's for keeping track of the length of ones solo in jazz and non-folkloric
music. I think it's an important topic and not necessarily connected to clave.

There are certainly a ton of threads already on clave. I would love to hear more about
how people keep track of their solos, and the techniques they use to be able intuitively
keep track of 8, 16 and 32 bars of music.



Sorry G!, Guess it got kinda morphed . I did start by saying bars, as I think it is best to think in bars because of theory concerns to what the rest of the band is going by. Most would not think in clave, but bars.

T
User avatar
Tonio
 
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:59 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Keeping track of a solo's length

Postby jorge » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:31 am

bongosnotbombs wrote:Can we start another thread for the clave discussion? I'm mostly interested in
technique's for keeping track of the length of ones solo in jazz and non-folkloric
music. I think it's an important topic and not necessarily connected to clave.

There are certainly a ton of threads already on clave. I would love to hear more about
how people keep track of their solos, and the techniques they use to be able intuitively
keep track of 8, 16 and 32 bars of music.


I don't think we have gone off topic at all. The point I was making, apparently not very effectively, was that there are other ways of conceptualizing time based on African mathematics, which are just as valid as European mathematics, and in some ways hipper. Why do all solos in jazz need to last an integer multiple of 4 bars? Why do they need to be explicitly counted at all? Maybe it is about being able to play with other musicians you don't know very well musically, so everyone will know when to come back in without any higher level communication than just counting bars. Maybe because in jazz there is no background rhythm holding clave so it is easier to get lost. Jazz would seem to be improvisational and flexible enough to be able to sometimes step beyond the orthodox European structure of the time and utilize other concepts of measuring time. Abakua music is one example of a non-European concept of time that could be applied to jazz. I am not making this up and don't take credit for inventing the idea. Listen to some of the stuff Sandy and Afrocuba have done with Steve Coleman.
jorge
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:47 am
Location: Teaneck, NJ

Previous

Return to Congas Technique, Rhythms and Exercises

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 19 guests