Mongo's conga tunning

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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Anonimo » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:45 pm

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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby RitmoBoricua » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:16 pm

You just have to listen to Willie Rosario's "Infinito" LP with Dandy Rodriguez on bongos and Papo Pepin on congas to know where "El masacote gordo con sabor y afinque" is at. Johnny Pacheco's "Tres De Cafe Y Dos Azucar" is another one that cooks with lots of "sabor, masacote y afinque" If that does not take it home and you do not feel it, I do not know what could!
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Anonimo » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:39 pm

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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Bongobilly » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:14 am

Wow Mongo would piss blood in his heyday.Saw him up close at the Bottom Line in N .Y.C Boy he commanded those congas!
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Luis » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:36 am

leedy2 wrote:

with all do respect when playing with 3, 4 congas (no hay Afinque)

I don't completely agree...Miguel "Anga" Diaz had no problems with afinque or masacote in his recording with the Afro Cuban Allstars. I'm not sure how many drums he used but, i'm sure it was more than two. Just my opinion.
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Anonimo » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:53 am

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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Luis » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:44 am

leedy2 wrote:
jorge wrote:
leedy2 wrote:with all do respect when playing with 3, 4 congas (no hay Afinque)


Leedy2, I agree with you that lots of players who play 3 or more drums lack cadencia y afinque. But that is a characteristic of the players, not the number of drums. There is a tendency for some inexperienced players to jump to 3 or 4 drums before they have mastered playing with swing and cadencia on one or 2 drums, and they just keep on playing raggedy like that or get worse, substituting the novelty of multiple different tones for accurate timing and swing. Even so, there are definitely players who play 3 or more drums well who play con mucho afinque. Examples are Juan Bravo of Orquesta Ritmo Oriental, Daniel Ponce in his early recordings with Puntilla (before he tried playing "salsa"), Joel Driggs with early Rumbavana and Van Van. Even Giovanni Hidalgo and Anga, who are (were) all over 5 drums with tremendous chops, could play afinque on 3 -5 drums when they chose to. But all these guys mastered the basics on congas and/or bata before they went to 3 or more congas. Regarding Mongo's tuning, I don't think he tuned his conga particularly high, just high enough to get that killer seco.


Examples are Juan Bravo of Orquesta Ritmo Oriental, Daniel Ponce in his early recordings with Puntilla (before he tried playing "salsa"), Joel Driggs with early Rumbavana and Van Van. Even Giovanni Hidalgo and Anga, who are (were) all over 5 drums with tremendous chops, could play afinque on 3 -5 drums

jorge
All of these guys that you mention are what is called free spirit musicians or as know (Latin Jazz)and they are very good at what they do.They play more effect's, so as the they play the carry a note to an other drum like mathematic's that you carry a number. When you put them to play salsa or any music related to this they are lost and let me explain lost. Not that they play wrong they can not play with 2 drum to be tight with rest of band's percussion section or better to say they are playing stress.Here I posted a video with Giovanni you can see that he is lost with out 3rd drum he was forced to play here with 2 drum.Note as you hear this video note he miss or changes beat around that's is his confusion look for 3rd drum it not timing. And this happens to all that want to play with a 3rd drum when face to play salsa aplomada or to say tight, afincado .On video you see Johnny tell gio stay there and he is also stressed playing bell note.Mongo had a very unusual way of playing and tuned his drum a bit high and that was more due to way that he played ,his hands were small and fat so when he hit drums the bounce of drum and that was why you hear loud slap and drum sound low .


OK, I read your post again. I still don't agree. In his recording with the Afro Cuban Allstars, which is straight up son and not Latin Jazz, Anga was as afincado as you can get...never "lost" or "stressed". Again, I am only talking about Anga and this particular recording. I do agree with Jorge that this is more about a characteristic of the players, not the number of drums.
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby jorge » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:42 pm

Hi Leedy2,
Where did you post that video of Geovanni? I couldn't find it in this thread.
Also, when you say "All of these guys that you mention are what is called free spirit musicians or as know (Latin Jazz)and they are very good at what they do." are you including all bongo players playing son or salsa (not latin jazz) as "free spirit musicians"? Are you saying that the bongo in son or salsa can't play afinque because that part is improvising (within clave)?
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Anonimo » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:23 pm

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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby JohnnyConga » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:28 am

"El Nino" with Irakere u have to admit had it all Sabor,Afinque,y Masacote IMHO, and he was the first with 5 tumbadoras that was able to make it work without sounding or being really busy....he created a lot of tumbaos that are now played today on 4 or more congas...Anga was most influenced by him and it showed in his playing as well...

When it comes to "musica tradicional" cha cha cha, mambo/salsa, charanga, guaracha, son montuno merengue,etc. it's all about afinque y masacote...Latin Jazz and other forms are freer and allows one to play in a 'nontraditional" manner....tuning is also about solfeggio....chek it out!...."JC" Johnny Conga
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Luis » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:52 am

leedy2 wrote:
jorge wrote:Hi Leedy2,
Where did you post that video of Geovanni? I couldn't find it in this thread.
Also, when you say "All of these guys that you mention are what is called free spirit musicians or as know (Latin Jazz)and they are very good at what they do." are you including all bongo players playing son or salsa (not latin jazz) as "free spirit musicians"? Are you saying that the bongo in son or salsa can't play afinque because that part is improvising (within clave)?



Jorge:
Luis:
The Giovanni video it not letting me copy it in a dvd call "El numero 100 '' by Tito Puente were gio is playing with 2 drum and you see when he lift his left hand to hit drum on left but there is no drum it show him off for a bit.

NO let me explain when these guy are playing latin jazz note clash all over but it blends because latin jazz is improvisational music . know when it come to salsa or son there is a pattern to this music for example when you play a guaguanco versus guaracha it has different aspects to it. A guajira and a cha cha but does any one play it? No. In todays music there is more showboating than detail of music that why every thing sounds the same.Today many bongos players and I include my self I see my self doing it also just follow the flow at times " A martillo when play it's like conga ,timbales they have a slap at end of there verse but how many do it"?.
Know with that said with note missing and over play of notes can you play afincuao? Playing un bongo is not just improvising or slapping there are beats that have to be play at a Certain time if not so that rhythm section can fall in place all the time. A rhythm section it a circle and if not played proper it wobbles.

As to a Anga he was a great conga player, but playing with Afro Cuban All Stars rhythm section you hear notes clashing all over to trained ear that is not afinquao it falls in place but with clashing notes don't make it sound right.

Luis I have a question for you .Many years ago big american bands like Dizzy, Coleman Hawkins, Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, Benny Carter, used conga player like Mongo, Candito, Chano Pozo,Chino Pozo Zabu Martinez,Ray Mantilla, Steve Berros these guys were striate players no show boating . In todays congas timbales bongo society all want to be show boaters.it a look what i can do.noice


LOL, Well sir, we will just have to agree to disagree with this statement... "As to a Anga he was a great conga player, but playing with Afro Cuban All Stars rhythm section you hear notes clashing all over to trained ear that is not afinquao it falls in place but with clashing notes don't make it sound right." As far as this goes..."Luis I have a question for you .Many years ago big american bands like Dizzy, Coleman Hawkins, Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, Benny Carter, used conga player like Mongo, Candito, Chano Pozo,Chino Pozo Zabu Martinez,Ray Mantilla, Steve Berros these guys were striate players no show boating . In todays congas timbales bongo society all want to be show boaters.it a look what i can do.noice[/quote]"... What was your question?
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Anonimo » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:52 pm

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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby caballoballo » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:55 pm

The end result to me, may be is ok to use various congas for a recording but depending on the type of music,some times the congas belong to the studio so there is no hauling around. But it is not too practical for giging. For Salsa I do not see anybody here using more than 2. First there is may be not enough room on the stage, second is no need . Third I would not let the Conguero in my band to do it. We want to play and sound clean not showing off. Last, playing afincao and with good swing is the way to sound. :wink:

What would you accomplish by using 3 or 4 congas ? You may fool some people by repeating the same on every conga but you will not fool the experience musician. :mrgreen:
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby Luis » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:47 pm

What does the number of congas a player uses have to do with showing off or showboating? If it's in his personality or he doesn't understand the band concept as it applies to the style he's playing (son montuno, latin jazz etc.), a player can showboat with 1 or 2 drums. In Maraca's "Sonando" a mostly son/salsa cd, Yaroldi Abreu uses 3 drums in a very tastful way. Mongo, Tata and many others set the standard. However, the bar has been raised by todays best players and as a result, more is demanded of them. Techniques such as snare drum rudiments like "Stick Control" and others, have somewhat changed how the conga is used in modern music. I like what this generation of top level pros are bringing...but that's my taste...you like what you like, I like what I like...no harm or disrespect intended.
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Re: Mongo's conga tunning

Postby RitmoBoricua » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:59 pm

caballoballo wrote:. Third I would not let the Conguero in my band to do it. We want to play and sound clean not showing off. Last, playing afincao and with good swing is the way to sound. :wink:

What would you accomplish by using 3 or 4 congas ? You may fool some people by repeating the same on every conga but you will not fool the experience musician. :mrgreen:



Well Said. When you are playing for the dancers with conga, bongo and timbal you have to have “amarre”, the rhythm section have to lock-in and pretty much playing in a question and answer setting, a rhythm dialogue.
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