Los Munequtios Vacunao

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Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby vasikgreif » Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:01 am

Hi everybody, could someone of you please tell me the name of the rhythm that starts at 2:07 in the first track of Munequitos Vacunao?
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby jorge » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:18 pm

Short answer: guaguanco, as it says in the liner notes.
Long answer: This is an early version of contemporary guaguanco that has been called, with no precise standard definitions, guarapachangueo or mambochambo.
The development of the guarapachangueo is very interesting. Here is one view, based on bits and pieces of information I have gathered talking to a few rumberos from Matanzas and La Habana, listening to recordings, and reading. El Goyo (Gregorio Diaz, not Gregorio Hernandez) was a particularly great tumbador with Los Muñequitos and to my knowledge was the first to have recorded (in the 60s - 80s) many of the low drum riffs you hear on that song and in a lot of guarapachangueos from La Habana. Who else contributed to development of the rhythms before actual recordings were made I don't know, but Goyo was a monster and probably created a lot of that himself. Typically the stars who get recorded are among the best of the rumberos in their region, but may not necessarily be the original or the solo creators of the rhythms, which are generally evolved as a style by a group process with contributions from several creative musicians.
More so than in Matanzas, this modern style of guaguanco was developed and popularized in La Habana by Los Chinitos, who made major contributions, and by Pancho Quinto, Yoruba Andabo, and Conjunto Clave y Guaguanco, all in the 1980s. Vale Todo is one of the few songs of this style of guaguanco played on cajones and tumbadoras with all 3 parts talking, that I have heard out of Matanzas, Los Muñequitos have done some other variations on guaguanco as well. In the mid 90s, the group that recorded the 2 Rapsodia Rumbera CDs developed a style of guarapachangueo different from the earlier styles. This group included Marco Herminio Diaz, Maximino Duquesne, Lazaro Rizo, Tata Guines, Pedro Lugo Martinez, Mario "Aspirina" Jauregui, Rogelio "El Gato" Gatel, Juan de Dios Ramos, Amado Dedeu Sr & Jr, Gregorio "El Goyo" Hernandez and a few others. From 1990 on, the key figure in organizing and recording these rumba groups in La Habana was and still is Rodolfo Chacon Tartabull, a producer at EGREM. He is also the nephew of Luis Chacon, one of the leaders of the current group Rumberos de Cuba.
This is a very interesting topic, development of the guarapachangueo between Matanzas and La Habana, which is an expansion of the poster's original question.
Anyone have additional or different information on this? Guarachon? Markito? David Peñalosa? James/BnB/others who see Sandy Perez regularly? Anyone else?
Last edited by jorge on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby windhorse » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:24 pm

Sure, that's Guarapachangueo.. We've got that one notated,, not that anyone other than the Muñequitos could EVER play it anywhere close to that version!

clave: | X - - X - - - X | - - X - X - - - ||
lobox: | t - t t - t b b | B - - - - - - - ||
conga: | - m m m - t b b | b - t o - o - s ||
tumba: | o - t o - t b b | b - t b - t b - ||
tumba: | s - t s - t b b | b - t b - t b - ||
tumba: | s - t s - t b b | b - t s - b - t ||
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby windhorse » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:30 pm

Pretty funny Jorge, you posted while I was posting and beat the post! :D
It's a completely awesome rhythm with so many variables and so many variations, instrument substitutions, and evolutions,, it's definitely a tough one to nail down.
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:02 pm

Hi Jorge,

Valerio Perla, Italian percussionist and bata player, is a godson of Irian López. He once told me in a private correspondence that the Chinitos invented that style of rumba as early as 1971-72. It was yet a primitive form of Guarapachangueo back then, and they played it to please their mother - reported Valerio, who had been told so by Irian and Pedrito themselves.

Finally you are confirming exactly what I have always felt - that the playing manner of Guarapachangueo resembles very much the collective interplay of the Muñequitos de Matanzas. By the way, thanks for pointing out that there were two "Goyos"; I simply didn't know that!

Was that Gregorio Díaz playing tumbador on the "Guaguancó-Columbia-Yambú" record?

Thomas
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby jorge » Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:34 pm

Hi Thomas,
How are you doing? Is winter over in Hamburg yet?
To answer your question, it depends on what you mean by tumbador, the low drum or the tumbador/salidor part. If you mean the drum, yes, I think Goyo plays tumbador on all the rumbas. If you mean the part, no, Jesus Alfonso played the tumbador part on the middle drum on the rumba columbia El Tocororo. On that song, Goyo plays a killer caja on the lowest drum but it is not the tumbador part. On the other songs on that album the low drum is the tumbador/salidor part and it sounds like Goyo's style of riffing. I believe it is Jesus on seis por ocho (segundo) and you can't mistake anyone else for Victoriano Espinosa "Titi" playing his amazing unique style of quinto. Unfortunately, the liner notes list everyone as "percussionists", without distinguishing who is playing what. You have to know each player's style to tell them apart. One big clue is that there is a video of Tocororo on the Routes of Rhythm documentary (with Harry Belafonte), available on DVD, which shows Goyo playing the same style caja part, and Jesus on seis por ocho, Titi on quinto. I am not completely sure whether Goyo's son Agustin Diaz (current seis por ocho with Los Muñequitos) is playing seis por ocho on some of the other songs, I can't tell his early style of playing from Jesus'. In Matanzas it is common for people to always play one part, and switching eg, tumbador to seis por ocho seemed to be rare.
As far as who invented the guarapachangueo, I still don't accept it was one person or even one family that created it single handedly (no pun intended). I have heard several different stories but until I hear the same, really definitive, story from several different reliable sources, I will continue to believe it is most likely that it evolved and was created by a number of different rumberos playing together and with different groups. It seems to be based on a number of different rumba, bata, Abakua, and other Afrocuban rhythmic influences, both in La Habana and Matanzas, and probably evolved through the 60s, 70s and 80s. What is the first recording you have heard that could be called guarapachangueo?
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:29 am

Dear Jorge,

How are you doing? Is winter over in Hamburg yet?


It keeps coming back like a resistant desease. In fact, my skin is affected and infected, I've had my cold and other unpleasant viral symptoms, made my tax declaration, and even slipped on the iced-over sidewalk to fracture a rib. I've had my share and I'm definitely ready for something else. What about NY?

If you mean the drum, yes, I think Goyo plays tumbador on all the rumbas.


Yes, I meant the low tuned drum.

What is the first recording you have heard that could be called guarapachangueo?


Yoruba Andabo: Callejon de los Rumberos. May not be the first recording, historically, but the first record that I really noticed.

I still don't accept it was one person or even one family that created it single handedly


I think I know what you are talking about. Everybody claims to be an originator, and my informant is likely to be biased. Valerio told me that in the 1980's everybody, including Pancho Quinto, went in and out the Chinitos' home in San Miguel del Padron, which at that time was regarded the "Vaticano de la Rumba". But this information may be a legend; so take it for whatever you want. It was just today that I realized I have spread and even published a ridiculous amount of mentiras in my career, only because I tend to believe what I am told.

Thanks again for your detailed info, I sincerely appreciate it.

Greetings from Winter Wonderland,

Thomas
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby jorge » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:06 am

Hi Thomas,
Sorry to hear Hamburg is still winter, and I hope your rib heals up quickly, I know firsthand what that feels like. New York was up to 51 degrees F today, almost like spring, although last week we got almost 2 feet of snow and next week, who knows?
Callejon de los Rumberos recorded by Yoruba Andabo in 1990, and Cantaremos y Bailaremos recorded by Clave y Guaguanco also in 1990, were the first 2 recordings I heard that I would call guarapachangueo. The prior recording by Yoruba Andabo, the sound track to Quien Baila Aqui, is great rumba de cajones, but I would not call it guarapachangueo. The earlier recordings by Clave y Guaguanco that I have heard also were more traditional rumba. Rapsodia Rumbera recorded in 1995 was the next recording I heard that was guarapachangueo, and Vale Todo on Vacunao by Los Muñequitos came out in 1995 as well.
Yeah, Dave, guarapachangueo is deep and it takes a while to hear what is where. There is a method to the madness though, and it all comes out of the traditional rumba parts, once you master those. Jesus Diaz and Mike Spiro just put up a great video lesson teaching basics of contemporary rumba on their website, that will get you started. It does take a lot of work and a lot of time to get it, and even a lot more effort (and listening to yourselves playing) to get it right and have it sound like music.
Anyone know of any earlier recordings of rumba that could be called guarapachangueo, ie, before 1990?
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby guarachon63 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:29 am

I think the "Cantaremos y Bailaremos" by Clave y Guaguancó is generally acknowledged to be the first "official" recording of guarapachangueo. (I am pretty sure Lali, for one, has told me that before.)

I doubt anyone remembers the actual release dates of either record but given that "Callejon" had miserable distribution in the nineties and "Cantaremos" seemed to be everywhere, it's probably safe to give the call to Clave y guaguancó.

It's very rare to get a "definitive" version about anything in Cuban music so I doubt we'll get one here, we just have to keep listening and asking.

Here is a link to an interview Antoine Miniconi did with Pedro Lopez of los Chinitos where they discuss the origins of guarapachangueo:
http://esquinarumbera.blogspot.com/2007/02/from-tukutum-kutum-to-kinpakin-pakin.html

Here's a link to an article by Berta Jottar with a slightly different take on it:

http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/journals/jlamr.html#301

saludos!
barry
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http://esquinarumbera.blogspot.com
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby jorge » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:33 pm

Guarachon, thanks. I stand corrected, the original Callejon de los Rumberos CD on Pablo Milanes' PM label out of Barcelona lists 1993 not 1990 as the recording date. I know for a fact that Cantaremos y Bailaremos was recorded in 1990 because I had the good fortune to be at one of the recording sessions at the EGREM studio that year, invited by Chacon and Amado. So Cantaremos y Bailaremos is the earliest we know about so far, followed 3 years later by Callejon de los Rumberos in 1993, then Rapsodia Rumbera and Vacunao in 1995.
Pedro Lopez' interview with Antoine Miniconi which you translated on your website is very interesting and sounds credible. He also seems to be classifying Vale Todo as a guarapachangueo.
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby danno » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:32 pm

Dave Crowder,

Did I meet you in Havana maybe 4 years ago at a tribute to Pancho Quinto? Afrocuba de Matanzas and Clave y Guaguanco were playing and you were hanging with Amado, I think you were staying at his house...? You were wearing a John Deer ball cap or something similar.... :-) it stood out to a Canadian boy like me.

I just took a look through your web site. Great transcriptions.

dan
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby windhorse » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:41 pm

Hi Dan!
Kind of sounds like me,, but no, I've never been to Cuba!
Where are you from? Maybe we have met somewhere else.

And thanks for the compliment on the transcriptions..
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby danno » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:35 am

OK,sorry about that. I'm in Halifax, Canada.

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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:52 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote:. . . the Chinitos invented that style of rumba as early as 1971-72. It was yet a primitive form of Guarapachangueo back then. . . you are confirming exactly what I have always felt - that the playing manner of Guarapachangueo resembles very much the collective interplay of the Muñequitos de Matanzas.


Hi Thomas,
There was a discussion in this forum several years ago about guarapachangeo and someone (I don't remember who) stated very matter-of-factly that the Chinitos were inspired by the inventos of Los Muñequitos. From records we can clearly hear that Los Muñequitos were the first to employ some of the techniques commonly associated today with guarapachangeo. Those techniques are present in their first recordings from the 1950s.

I think I've said this before, but it might be worth repeating. I was playing guaguanco with Miguel Bernal (from Havana) in the early 90s. I was on the tumba, playing typical Muñequitos mute variations on the tumba (circa 1980s) and Miguel told me that I was playing guarapachangeo. I tried to explain that I was playing Muñequitos variations, but he insisted that it was guarapachangeo.

I first encountered guarapachangeo in Mexico in the late 80s at a workshop given by members of the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional de Cuba. It was very tame in comparison to the complex and dense inventos we hear today. Miguel Bernal arranged a similar version of guarapachangeo on the CD Drum Jam (2000).

The earliest recording of guarapachangeo that I am aware of comes from an obscure cassette tape made in Mexico by Cubans (including Regino Jimenez, Roberto Viscaino and Philipe Alfonso) and North Americans (including Mark Lamson and Chris "Flaco" Walker) called Tambor de las Estrellas (1989). I will email an MP3 to anyone who wishes to hear it. Send me a PM if you are interested.
-David
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Re: Los Munequtios Vacunao

Postby Congadelica » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Hi David
I would love to hear that track . this Guarapachangueo subject is very interesting, my group are working on this , we are learning the elements but there are so many variations , its good to compare different styles . I am particular fond of Clave Y Guaguanco Songs and Dances .

Marco
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