Songo or Mozambique ?

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Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Roka » Sun May 02, 2010 6:24 pm

Hi all !

I was taught this is a Mozambique

ptStOoTT-OptOoTT

t = tip (conga)
T = tone (tumba)
Capital = strong hand

But after learning for a while, that one sounds like a Songo for me.

How would you name this pattern ?
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sun May 02, 2010 6:35 pm

Hi Roka.

This is one of the million Songo patterns that you can hear.

Did you get it from a U.S. Salsa track? Doesn't look Cuban to me.

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Roka » Mon May 03, 2010 6:10 am

No, I've got ir from Venesualian guy Williams Cumberbache

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICjeFixrUoc
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon May 03, 2010 12:53 pm

I didn't hear it on the youtube video. I suppose you learned the pattern from him personally and gave the youtube link just to show who you are talking about.

There are also quite a few Mozambique patterns for congas. The pattern that Tommy Lopez plays on Palmieri's "Mambo con Conga" record is different from what Jerry Gonzalez plays on Libre's "Bamboleate" version, and both are different from what I had learned. And then of course you may argue that none of these is really Mozambique because the only real Mozambique is the one created by Pello El Afrokán in Cuba in 1962/63. The U.S. version is basically an adaptation of the Cuban Ritmo Conga. Since Steve Gadd has utilized the U.S. Mozambique for Paul Simon's "Late in the Evening", this is what everybody understands as Mozambique.
That's just the way of the world.

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby JohnnyConga » Mon May 03, 2010 6:39 pm

I learned the tumbadora part for Mozambique by Mario Galagarza(Willie Colon first album) who learned it from Tommy Lopez...basically Tommy and Manny Oquendo did what they could to 're-create' the rhythm between them playing only specific parts..Manny playing the Bombo part and cowbell, and Tommy playing his part on ONE drum...i also know other 'ol skool' versions created in the Bronx on 2 and 3 congas that nobody plays anymore...and those rhythms i pass on to my students today...they are totally different from Pello's versions...."JC" Johnny Conga
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon May 03, 2010 7:25 pm

Hi Johnny,

to be honest, I never even realized that Tommy Lopez played this on one drum only. I play his rhythm (or something quite similar) on two drums, hembra on "2+".

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby JohnnyConga » Tue May 04, 2010 2:15 am

Yea Tommy played one drum and then Barry would double on congas when Tommy soloed...I can also play his part on 2 and 3 congas as well.which has no relationship to the way Pello played the Mozambique..we cant download videos here or I would show u how it was played..."JC" Johnny Conga
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Roka » Tue May 04, 2010 6:48 am

Thomas Altmann wrote:I didn't hear it on the youtube video. I suppose you learned the pattern from him personally and gave the youtube link just to show who you are talking about.



Exactly
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Anonimo » Tue May 04, 2010 10:43 am

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby niallgregory » Tue May 04, 2010 11:16 am

pello used alot more than 2 in his ( the original ) mozambique . I learned all the parts from a uk friend who got to know pello before he died .Amazing rhythm when played using all the parts 2 bombos , sartenes , the double drum part plus the other 3 congas ! :D amazing stuff .
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue May 04, 2010 11:23 am

Hi Johnny,

JohnnyConga wrote:I can also play his part on 2 and 3 congas as well. ... we cant download videos here or I would show u how it was played..."JC" Johnny Conga


Oh yeah, I created a 3-conga pattern myself, based on the 2-drum thing. And I developed a way to pull it into a 6/8-feel or something in-between and go back and forth; that's funky - one of my favorite "own contributions".

Some time ago I bought myself a camera; I still have to sit down and study the manual to see how it works. Also, I never got into that youtube thing like you did. Once I have explored all that, I can demonstrate that lick. And then I can also show you my technical principles. (I still remember our discussion re: Tomas Cruz.)

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue May 04, 2010 4:54 pm

Pello's mozambique was the first Cuban popular music genre that regularly used rumba clave as its key pattern. Also, his rhythmic invention has specific parts that enter in different places in relation to clave; the two-drum part begins on bombo, the clave begins on the three-side, the bell begins on the two-side, etc.

Eddie Palmieri's NY mozambique does not have specific conga parts. Basically, the conguero plays a "rolling" pattern loosely based on the bell part. As long as you do that, you are cool. Some of the conga inventions sound similar to the Cuban creations of the songo era.

Concerning that NY-style bell pattern, according to John Santos (Modern Drummer Magazine 1987), the great Cuban folklorist Julito Collazo was the first timbalero to play it in Eddie's band. Of course Manny Oquendo became closely associated with the NY mozambique bell pattern.

While the original Cuban version and the NY version are both based on the rhythm conga de comparsa, they are in fact two distinct rhythms that do not share any parts in common. I think the sub-title of Eddie's record summarizes the essence of his rhythm: "Mambo con Conga is Mozambique." Ironically, it was the NY rhythm that became world renown.

A few years back in the Latinjazz forum Bobby Sanabria addressed the harmonic differences between these two rhythms with the same name:

". . . one must also look at the musical content (melody, harmony, besides rhythmic structure) that make it slightly different than the traditional Conga De Comparsa complex. Mozambique's have a lot do with Mambo/Guaracha style writing and for the most part, in Pello's case, are in major tonalities. Also his unique use of trombones is something that has to be considered. What Pello did, is, obviously based on the Conga De Comparsa, but it does have its own idiosyncratic differences to be considered a different style unto itself. The Mozambique's done by Eddie Palmieri are almost always in minor keys."

-David
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue May 04, 2010 7:36 pm

Hi David,

...the great Cuban folklorist Julito Collazo was the first timbalero to play it in Eddie's band.


At first I remembered loosely that there was someone else before Manny, but I couldn't remember who it was, and I was also afraid that I had confused the case with Blas Egües and Changuito with Los Van Van. Anyway, was Julito also the one who introduced that bell pattern? Everybody takes it for Manny's thing.

Mozambique's have a lot do with Mambo/Guaracha style writing and for the most part, in Pello's case, are in major tonalities. ... The Mozambique's done by Eddie Palmieri are almost always in minor keys.


Based on Bobby Sanabria's observation, do you think that either Pello or Palmieri (or whoever wrote for them) did that on purpose to define their respective styles for all future? I don't. I think that's mere analysis on Sanabria's side. Perhaps it had happened by accident.

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue May 04, 2010 8:14 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote:. . . was Julito also the one who introduced that bell pattern? Everybody takes it for Manny's thing.


Hi Thomas,
I don't know. John Santos didn't mention who actually invented the parts. In the Manny Oquendo instructional video directed by Andy Gonzalez, Manny claims credit for inventing the rhythm, and asserts that he adopted the Cuban version to a smaller ensemble, although he provides no specific information. I found it to be an unsatisfactory explanation.

Thomas Altmann wrote: Based on Bobby Sanabria's observation, do you think that either Pello or Palmieri (or whoever wrote for them) did that on purpose to define their respective styles for all future?


I don't know. Since Palmieri followed, he would have been the one attempting to distinguish his invention from the original. I suspect that there is no deeper reason, other than they were two different musicians who made similar but different music.

I think that it might be worth pointing out that at the time when Palmieri's Conjunto la Perfecta premiered their mozambique, Latin music audiences in NY (excerpt for hardcore audiophiles) were unaware of contemporary developments in Cuban music. In other words, people were not comparing the two mozambiques. The U.S.-based Cuban exiles who threatened to bomb Palmieri for playing mozambique were apparently unaware that Palmieri was in fact not playing the latest Cuban dance craze. Palmieri's mozambique is actually an original NY rhythm, not a copy of a Cuban rhythm like son montuno or pachanga, as is the case with salsa.
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby niallgregory » Tue May 04, 2010 10:20 pm

Ive always wondered what was the motivation behind the new york ryhthm being called mozambique ? What was the point in creating a brand groove and naming it after an already existing cuban ryhthm . Unless the new yorkers where trying to imitate pellos music in some way and just couldnt work out the grooves clearly from the records , which is the story ive been told .Anybody ?
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