Songo or Mozambique ?

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue May 04, 2010 10:29 pm

niallgregory wrote:Ive always wondered what was the motivation behind the new york ryhthm being called mozambique ?


I remember hearing that Palmieri and gang initially heard Pello's music via shortwave radio. If that's the case, then they didn't have mozambique records to study, merely the fleeting experience of hearing occasional tunes on the radio. Palmieri and Oquendo were Cuban audiophiles, who studied Cuban records (Oquendo was a collector of Cuban 78s). I think it's safe to say that they were inspired by the mozambique. Interestingly, as far as I know, Palmieri has never talked about this in-depth.
-David
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Postby ABAKUA » Wed May 05, 2010 1:01 am

niallgregory wrote:Ive always wondered what was the motivation behind the new york ryhthm being called mozambique ? What was the point in creating a brand groove and naming it after an already existing cuban ryhthm . Unless the new yorkers where trying to imitate pellos music in some way and just couldnt work out the grooves clearly from the records , which is the story ive been told .Anybody ?


You are correct there.
Quite simple really, its a CUBAN pattern. As per Pello's creation. As the correct knowledge was not in NY at the time, it had to be imitated to the best of their creative abilities by the leading percussionists of the time. It would have been perceived as wrong (in comparison the authentic form) at the time of its creation in NY.
However, that way of playing it became the 'accepted' way of playing it in NY cause that the way all the cats coming up wouldve observed it being played. Such to the point of it subsequently becoming a NY way of playing it.

Same with playing Guaguanco being played incorrectly (ie cruzado) Fania, Palmieri, & Colombians salsa in general are famous for playing Guaguanco cruzado. Celia Cruz's QUIMBARA, Hector Lavoe's AGUANILE, & La India/Palmieri's 'MI PRIMERA RUMBA', all classic examples where the Guaguanco is cruzado. In early years it was not clear how guaguanco is 'meant' to be played. Due to years and decades of recordings since, arrangers now 'argue' the fact that the song has been "arranged" to be played that way. I dont care what you say, its a CUBAN form, played in a certain clave direction, any variance to that is incorrect and cruzado. I even have an old SON 14 with Tiburon vinyl where they are playing Guaguanco cruzado, it sounds terrible. Makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. :evil: :lol:

It would be like me starting to play marcha against clave, and call it my own adaptation of the form. It does nto make it correct. However if 40 yrs laters it is still being played that way and has been used in countless recordings, it suddenly becomes an official 'variance' of the form? No. Its just an incorrect way of playing something which has since become unique to a region or accepted by masses of percussionists to be the 'way its done' due them observing and being taught this way by their peers. Sure, it has given richness to the pattern and created something which certainly grooves, however, it it not the correct way of playing it.
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Re:

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed May 05, 2010 1:17 am

ABAKUA wrote: . . . Same with playing Guaguanco being played incorrectly (ie cruzado) Fania, Palmieri, & Colombians salsa in general are famous for playing Guaguanco cruzado. Celia Cruz's QUIMBARA, . .


Hi Marcelo,
When you refer to playing guaguanco cruzado, do you mean playing the segundo on the three-side? If so, then I have to disagree. That's how the part was originally played. You can hear the segundo played on the three-side on the first recordings of folkloric guaguanco.

(Since this has been discussed in this forum before, you may not be referring to the segundo. If so, please disregard my comments and please set me straight.)

The practice of playing the segundo on the two-side began in the mid-50s. The rumberos who first came to the US played it on the three-side, which is why the old NY cats played it that way too. Cuban born Mario Bauza and NY born Tito Puente insisted that the original way (segundo on the three-side) was the only true and correct way to play guaguanco.
-David
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Re: NY Mozambique ?

Postby Isaac » Wed May 05, 2010 1:35 am

In a NYC workshop I attended at the Harbor Conservatory School with Chucho Valdes (late 90s),
he gave a heartfelt big thanks to the New York Salsa musicians of the 60s & 70s for helping
keep cuban music alive. At the same time he was humbled to be in the land of Jazz,
the home of Charlie Parker and John Coltrane.

Here's a related quote from an interview:

" The ‘60s were an era of great creativity. We started developing rhythms from Mozambique; and then again, many of the percussionists wanted to develop their own rhythmic persona to make their music recognizable as their own. Some of those percussionists were not good at all, but some of their musical concepts remain. In this way Afro-Cuban forms became very varied. The big changes really started to come in the early ‘70s. You can see a definite difference after that. " ~ Chucho Valdes


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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Tonio » Wed May 05, 2010 5:10 am

Interesting Isaac..

Innovation must come from somewhere, and even Chucho embraced it ? Not sure that is in context of the whole quote, but apparently change is not something folks take lightly. Its all part of being creative I suppose....

T
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Anonimo » Wed May 05, 2010 9:49 am

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed May 05, 2010 4:17 pm

leedy2 wrote:. . . first timbales player for Eddie Palmieri was not Julito Collazo is was Mike Collazo the second was Chicky Perez then came Manny Oquendo. . . . bell pattern also was invented by Pello what Manny was incorporate it with with bass drum affect.


Hi Leedy,
That was me who posted the info about Julito Collazo, not Thomas. Can you share the source of your information? Is that from record loner notes? John Santos wrote that Julito Collazo held the timbales chair prior to Oquendo. If that is incorrect, I'm surprised, because John is a good researcher. Julito was playing timbales at this time. You can hear him take a timbales solo on Mongo's "Carmela." I transcribed an excerpt from that solo for my upcoming book.

One more thing; are you saying that the NY bell pattern was also invented by Pello?
-David
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby RitmoBoricua » Wed May 05, 2010 4:29 pm

The cover of the first "La Perfecta" recording is consistant with Leedy2 statement regarding MIke Collazo. You see Mike Collazo on that cover not Julito Collazo.

Also Eddie Palmieri mentions Mike Collazo on this interview some years ago with Descarga.

http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/arch ... vjGFF;;260
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed May 05, 2010 5:41 pm

Thanks RitmoBoricua and Leedy.
-David
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby RitmoBoricua » Wed May 05, 2010 6:49 pm

No problem, you are welcome. Just making sure the right Collazo (Mike, RIP) get the credit here.
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Anonimo » Wed May 05, 2010 6:53 pm

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed May 05, 2010 7:18 pm

Leedy,
Thanks. I won't repeat that misinformation again. I find forums like these very helpful as they augment and correct my understanding. I recognize the Julito Collazo page you posted from Wikipedia. Do you think that Julito's credit for the timbales solo on Mongo's "Carmela" (1962) is correct? Just wondering.

I still don't understand your statement:

leedy2 wrote: . . bell pattern also was invented by Pello what Manny was incorporate it with with bass drum affect.


Were you saying that Pello invented the mozambique bell pattern played by Palmieri?
-David
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Omelenko1 » Wed May 05, 2010 8:26 pm

Julito Collazo as well as Mike Collazo both played timbales with Eddie Palmieri. Mike came first ,but Julito was the timbalero when "Lo Que Traigo Es Sabroso" album was recorded. Julito also played timbales for Ray Barretto for a short while, before Orestes.

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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed May 05, 2010 9:20 pm

Well, this gets more interesting by the moment. Perhaps John Santos was correct after all.
-David
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Re: Songo or Mozambique ?

Postby Anonimo » Wed May 05, 2010 9:55 pm

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