Recordings That Cross The Clave

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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby guarachon63 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:35 pm

I believe that the Habaneros also have their own story about how that came about.

What are you referring to, that the Matanceros played things backward?


Just being a little facetious is all, guys!

It struck me as funny that the (allegedly) pre-Muñequitos Matanzas style of that version of "Cuando del Africa salí" had a part that is reversed from the way the Muñequitos play it, when there is also the story about how the Muñequitos (allegedly) began placing the 3/2 on the other side a well.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:31 pm

jorge wrote:That rhythmic figure seems to have been a popular salidor floreo in Matanzas guaguanco before it caught on in La Habana and became part of the guarapachangueo.


However, the Matancero tumba variation from the 1950s and the typical guarapachangueo phrase played with bass tones are sounded on opposing sides of clave. Also, while the Matancero tumba variation begins on the tumba tone (ponche), the series of bass tones in guarapachangueo typically begin on the subdivision immediately before where the tumba tone occurs. Therefore I don't consider the two phrases to be the same.
-David
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Thomas Altmann » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:52 am

Hi David,

thanks for your response. And thanks to Barry & George, too. There's a lot to learn from your conversation, and to check recordings for what you stated. I also had a look at the Rumba Tonada thread. It's just great to be in contact with you guys.

Thomas

P.S.: "the Rumboleros CD" - is this something that's commercially available? I never heard the name before.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby jorge » Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:48 am

Thomas, looks like you are in luck and the Rumboleros CD is available again.
http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/20837.10
Great CD with excellent quinto on some songs by Pedro Vero Alfonso, really nice singing. Pure guaguanco Matancero, some classic songs that they probably did first before groups in La Habana. Protesta Carabali, Pentagrama Musical, Ritmo Criollo Guaguanco, Cuele Cuele. Sounds like they influenced Yoruba Andabo and Rumberos de Cuba / Rapsodia Rumbera a lot. CD will probably be out of print soon so grab it while you can. No crossed clave that I noticed yet. Apologies for the mini-hijack, reference to that CD really does not belong in a thread about crossing clave.

To atone for this hijack, David, I hear the accents in the guarapachangueo and the 50s guaguanco Matancero both on the first beat of clave. In many guarapachangueos (not all) the 4 bass strokes end on an accent that is opposite (1 measure after) the main tres dos golpe, ie the last bass stroke is on the first beat of clave. This figure is usually played on the tres dos cajon. Here is an example Mark Sanders sent me, Los Ibellis Junior with the child prodigy (now a few years older) Didier on quinto and singing gallo, doing Lamento Esclavo, also called Cuando de Africa Sali.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=300UFxmxxys

In much of the guaguanco Matancero from the 50s I have have heard, usually with El Goyo (Diaz) on tumbador, the floreo he plays puts the accented muffled tone (presionado) on the first beat of clave, opposite (1 measure after) the golpe of the seis por ocho part. Occasionally you will hear the tumbador accent played on top of the golpe, but usually it is answering it on the opposite downbeat. Neither of these accents would be considered crossing the clave, they are call and response patterns that make the melody of the guaguanco.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Thomas Altmann » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:25 pm

Thomas, looks like you are in luck and the Rumboleros CD is available again.


Thank you Jorge. I'll check it out.

Coincidentally, the guy who played tres-dos on the video (Yakinai) had also played iyá on my presentación a Añá.

Greetings,

Thomas
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:42 pm

jorge wrote: I hear the accents in the guarapachangueo and the 50s guaguanco Matancero both on the first beat of clave. In many guarapachangueos (not all) the 4 bass strokes end on an accent that is opposite (1 measure after) the main tres dos golpe, ie the last bass stroke is on the first beat of clave. This figure is usually played on the tres dos cajon. Here is an example Mark Sanders sent me, Los Ibellis Junior with the child prodigy (now a few years older) Didier on quinto and singing gallo, doing Lamento Esclavo,. . .
In much of the guaguanco Matancero from the 50s I have have heard, usually with El Goyo (Diaz) on tumbador, the floreo he plays puts the accented muffled tone (presionado) on the first beat of clave, opposite (1 measure after) the golpe of the seis por ocho part. Occasionally you will hear the tumbador accent played on top of the golpe, but usually it is answering it on the opposite downbeat. Neither of these accents would be considered crossing the clave, they are call and response patterns that make the melody of the guaguanco.


Hi Jorge,
I have probably not investigated guarapachangeo to the extent you have, so I defer to your expertise. However, that video clip sounds like just a plain guaguancó melody (using a cajón) to me. Do the distinct rides make it a guarapachangeo?

I'm sure you know this, but it's worth mentioning for the other readers of this thread that in the cases where the Muñequitos tumbador accent is played on top of the golpe, it is the golpe that has moved (sounded on the three-side), not the tumba.

When Los Muñequitos came to Arcata in 1992, I was excited to see Goyo play all those variations I had been listening to for years. I was surprised to see him play most of his variations on the other side though (on the three-side instead of the two-side), so that the tumba variations led into the segundo, not answering the segundo. However, they were different tumba variations and it was not a matter of simply reversing the pattern in relation to clave.

I take your point about none of this being a matter of crossing the clave. It appears we left the topic of this thread behind some time ago. :)
-David
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby roberthelpus » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:44 pm

@jorge I was freaking out watching the second video (ibellis junior) It looked like that cajon was made out of metal. Like HVAC ducting. Then I expanded the video and saw that it was painted wood. Great video, thanks for posting.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby jorge » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:33 pm

davidpenalosa wrote:... that video clip sounds like just a plain guaguancó melody (using a cajón) to me. Do the distinct rides make it a guarapachangeo?

Watch the tumbador and listen to the bass of the tumbador and tres dos, as well as to the conversations between tumbador and tres dos. Much more is going on than a normal guaguanco. Whether you want to call it guarapachangueo or not, it is definitely modern guaguanco beyond the classic styles. Maybe I use the word guarapachangueo too loosely, or maybe it is just a vaguely defined word. Some call it mambochambo or just rumba.

davidpenalosa wrote:I'm sure you know this, but it's worth mentioning for the other readers of this thread that in the cases where the Muñequitos tumbador accent is played on top of the golpe, it is the golpe that has moved (sounded on the three-side), not the tumba.

I don't remember ever hearing Agustin play the golpe on the 3 side, but I could have missed it. Do you know of an example? I do remember hearing Goyo and the tumbador for Rumboleros play a floreo with the accented tone on the 2 side on top of the golpe. 99% of the time though, the tumbador floreo lands with the accent on the first beat of the 3 side.

davidpenalosa wrote:the tumba variations led into the segundo, not answering the segundo.

I am not sure how you see leading into the segundo and answering the segundo being different, since the rhythm is ongoing and answering one measure of the segundo in the next measure could sound like leading up to the segundo in the third measure. A lot depends on what the segundo is doing and on the specific tumbador floreo, some seem to lead up to the golpe more than others.

Roberthelpus that is the new style guaguanco / guarapachangueo the younger generation is playing now in Cuba. Don't thank me, thank Mark Sanders who sent me the clip, I had not seen that one before.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby windhorse » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:49 pm

davidpenalosa wrote:
Thomas Altmann wrote:What about Rumba Tonada? Which type of rumba is "Cuando de Africa salí" by Gregorio Hernández "El Goyo" on the "La Rumba es Cubana" CD? Thomas

One last thing, Miguel Bernal taught guarapachangeo in his guaguancó class last week. When asked about it, Miguel said that guarapachangeo is modern guaguancó.
-David


And, just to mess up further this whole analysis of Guarapachangueo, In Miguel's class, I clapped out clave to when he was demonstrating the low box part. I clapped it out the way it's done in "our" version (taken from the Muñequitos' Vacunao CD) where the cascade of basses go into the third main downbeat. He smiled and nodded yes.. Then, when he asked me to be the example at the end of class and play the part, he frowned when I played the bajo with the cascade of bases into the "three" and made me switch with it going into the "one". Then, I was really confused.. James asked him after the class, "Which way do you play this part?" and his answer was "either way" - meaning either side of clave. We don't know if the other parts change in accordance to the low box change, but surely they do. I find this very interesting. Of course it's only one master's interpretation as stated before in this thread.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby roberthelpus » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:21 pm

jorge wrote:Roberthelpus that is the new style guaguanco / guarapachangueo the younger generation is playing now in Cuba. Don't thank me, thank Mark Sanders who sent me the clip, I had not seen that one before.


I was just freaked out about the idea of a drum made of metal. A friend learned a version in Cuba from one of Munequitos (I think) and we worked on it a bit. For some reason we had it as Guanapanchaguera, and it took a while to figure out that guarapachangueo is what it was. Hopefully we haven't gotten the drumming part of it just as screwed up :)
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:13 am

jorge wrote: I don't remember ever hearing Agustin play the golpe on the 3 side, but I could have missed it. Do you know of an example?


Hi Jorge,
Your question is motivating me to transfer my live 1992 Los Muñequitos DAT tape to MP3. I can't think of another source at the moment.

davidpenalosa wrote:the tumba variations led into the segundo, not answering the segundo.

jorge wrote:I am not sure how you see leading into the segundo and answering the segundo being different, since the rhythm is ongoing and answering one measure of the segundo in the next measure could sound like leading up to the segundo in the third measure.


I agree that the music is circular. However, from the perspective of clave, the three-side is first (antecedent), answered by the two-side (consequent). From the perspective of clave's progression then, the sequence of the three drums' tones is: quinto, tumba, segundo, classic Muñequitos tumba variation. Looking at it that way, the tumba variation answers the segundo.

I suppose it depends upon whether you look at it in a linear or circular form. I find both perspectives useful.
-David
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby FidelsEyeglasses » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:30 pm

Some "Clave trivia":
There is only one song I have ever heard Ray Barretto play/put his 'tres dos' part on the so called "correct side" of the clave while a rumba Guaguancó is played... it is on the song "Mi Suerte",
which was on his 1965 LP titled "Viva Watusi" (later reissued on CD).
"Mi Suerte":
http://www.divshare.com/download/13685835-5ba

I asked John Amira years ago what he thought about the so called "right side/wrong side" debate.
He told me he felt that 'Clave' started to be played answering the tres dos (the so called "correct way" & how everyone plays it now), during the mid 50's in Havana because "there is more room/more space" for the quinto to play in and feels more comfortable.

Markito
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