Recordings That Cross The Clave

[Quinto Governor II]

I listened again to those 2 songs by Yoruba Andabo. The clave is perfect, as good as it gets. The tempo is a little slower than we usually play guaguanco in the park, but the masters like it slower. Learn to play clave like Geovani in Yoruba Andabo and you can play rumba with anyone. Play along with the record, lock in to the tres dos and the cata. Like Congadelica said, play with the best rumberos you can find. It will take a few years, and if you have talent, you will get it. Good things take time. Singing while you play helps.

Hey jorge,
Do you see these songs as guaguanco's? I always assumed they were guarapachanguero's.

[jorge]

Guarapachangueo is a modern form of guaguanco.

[Thomas Altmann]

The way I understand it is: Guaguancó, Yambú and Columbia are dance forms that can be accompanied in various ways, while Guarapachangueo is a modern way to play Rumba in general. Guarapachangueo refers as well to a new form of rhythm for the Guaguancó dance (that might have evolved over the years, too), as it is a modern, more open, style of interpretation that is applied to any form of Rumba. Am I correct?

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Thomas,
This is probably one of those questions that would get different answers from different rumberos. I think there is a category of songs that have been specifically composed for guarapachangeo. So, in that sense guarapachangeo would be its own form of rumba. As far as the dance though, guarapachangeo belongs within the narrower category of guaguancó, since that's what they dance to that rhythm.

Were you also suggesting that guarapachangeo is used as a wider category for the modern expressions of all rumba?
-David

[Quinto Governor II]

Hi Thomas,
This is probably one of those questions that would get different answers from different rumberos. I think there is a category of songs that have been specifically composed for guarapachangeo. So, in that sense guarapachangeo would be its own form of rumba. As far as the dance though, guarapachangeo belongs within the narrower category of guaguancó, since that's what they dance to that rhythm.

Were you also suggesting that guarapachangeo is used as a wider category for the modern expressions of all rumba?
-David

.

David your point is exactly the thought I had. How do you fit guarapachangeo into yambu and columbia? The dance aspect raises another question. I believe I've heard of about 2 other lesser known forms of rumba. What are they, and do they have thier own dance and songs?

[davidpenalosa]

Several weeks ago I was attempting to address this issue. This is what I wrote (with accompanying notes below):

By most accounts, the folkloric genre known as rumba first emerged in Cuba during the 1880s, at the time when slavery was finally abolished on the island.[2] Some authors have cited the birth of rumba as earlier.[3] We know that the Congolese-based progenitors of rumba existed in the slave barracones (‘barracks’) during the early nineteenth century. It is therefore highly probable that various types of proto-rumbas were danced prior to the first rumba references made by contemporary chroniclers.

2. Several types of rumba emerged, some of which have been lost to time, or are extremely rare today. These include the taona (Courlander 1942: 238), papalote (Sublette 2004: 258), and the jiribilla and resedá (Alén 2010: 3).
3. It should be mentioned at the outset that the history of rumba is filled with so many unknowns, contradictions, conjectures and myths which have, over time been taken as fact, that any definitive history of the genre is probably impossible to reconstruct. Even elders who were present at historic junctures in rumba’s development will often disagree over the critical details of its history.

I know that the jiribilla is am instrumental form, in which the musical prowess of the drummers is exhibited. I don't know anything about the other mentioned forms.
-David

[bongosnotbombs]

I know that the jiribilla is am instrumental form, in which the musical prowess of the drummers is exhibited. I don't know anything about the other mentioned forms.
-David

There used to be a great video of Barnarito Ramos dancing jiribilla. I've had it explained to me that jiribilla is for demonstration.

[davidpenalosa]

jiribilla is for demonstration.

That is what I have been consistently told. I don't know any more though. Would some of the more dramatic numbers by Los Papines be considered jiribilla? Or, maybe the cabaret-style rumbas performed by Chano in 1947?
-David

[bongosnotbombs]

I'm not really able to say. I know I have read that jiribilla is characteristically very fast.

[davidpenalosa]

I have read that jiribilla is characteristically very fast.

Those 1947 Chano rumbas are very fast.

[Thomas Altmann]

@David:

Were you also suggesting that guarapachangeo is used as a wider category for the modern expressions of all rumba?

As far as "modern expression of rumba" incorporates an open concept in rhythmic interpretation and instrumentation, yes. It seems to me that this relatively modern term has taken on the connotation of a stylistic category. However, as I know I am by no means an expert, neither in any sort of modern terms nor in rumba actually (compared to many other forum members), I formulated this rather as a question than as a suggestion.

Several types of rumba emerged, some of which have been lost to time, or are extremely rare today. These include the taona (Courlander 1942: 238), papalote (Sublette 2004: 258), and the jiribilla and resedá (Alén 2010: 3).

What about Rumba Tonada?

Which type of rumba is "Cuando de Africa salí" by Gregorio Hernández "El Goyo" on the "La Rumba es Cubana" CD?

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

What about Rumba Tonada? Which type of rumba is "Cuando de Africa salí" by Gregorio Hernández "El Goyo" on the "La Rumba es Cubana" CD? Thomas

Hi Thomas,
Sorry for the late response. I was desperately trying to finish my rumba book by deadline, and then the week-long Afro-Cuban workshop began. Yesterday was the last day of the workshop, with the faculty performance last night and the after-party following that. I left the party at 5 am this morning and it was still going strong.

Former Conjunto Cespedes bassist Rob Holland was playing his Ritmo Oriental-like tumbaos in rumba and son montuno jams. Lazaro Galarraga singing . . . Too much fun!

To your question; A short time ago, rumba song specialist Barry Cox convinced me that rumba tonada was an invention contrived especially for the Ilu Aña CD (which is why I did not list it previously). However, last night over dinner, Mike Spiro (who produced the CD) told me that he is certain it is indeed a sub-genre of rumba played specifically in Trinidad, Cuba. Mike learned this from José Pilar, who arranged the rumba tonada on Ilu Aña.

A more modern arrangement of rumba tonada was performed last night by Sandy Pérez, Ramón Diaz, Miguel Bernal, Jesús Diaz, Mike Spiro and John Santos. It was performed on four tumbadoras, a bass cajón and an itótele batá. While it had some of the same parts as those heard on Ilu Aña, the addition of the cajón and batá gave it a guarapachangeo-like flavor reminiscent of inventions played by Yoruba Andabo. Jesús played the quinto, using the same bonkó-like phrases heard on the Ilu Aña version.

I'm not an expert by any means concerning the modern interpretations of rumba. I suspect that as with most of these types of things, you will get contradictory answers from different rumba masters. I have heard guarapachangeo used as a generic term for the many different, modern guaguancó inventos. Guarapachangeo did begin with a simple drum melody, but it has since expanded into something much more complex, with similarities to bata-rumba. Using the broadest definition then, I consider "Cuando de Africa salí" to be a form of guarapachangeo. By the way, the tumba part heard on that song is typically played by Los Muñequitos on the other side of clave in guaguancó .

One last thing, Miguel Bernal taught guarapachangeo in his guaguancó class last week. When asked about it, Miguel said that guarapachangeo is modern guaguancó.
-David

[guarachon63]

Hi Thomas, David

About "Cuando del Africa Salí" on Goyo's "La rumba es cubana" CD, the liner notes say:

[La] forma de acompañamiento recrea la manera típica de tocar el guaguancó en Matanzas antes de la irrupción del estilo Muñequitos - y que se graba por primera vez..."

"The accompaniment recreates the typical style of playing guaguancó in Matanzas before the sudden appearance of the Muñequitos' style - and is recorded here for the first time..."

David, you wrote:

By the way, the tumba part heard on that song is typically played by Los Muñequitos on the other side of clave in guaguancó .

This is interesting given the typical story of the Muñequitos also being responsible for flipping the 3/2 part - seems they just played everything backward!

Also interesting stuff from Mike Spiro about Rumba Tonada, I am going to pick that one up in the rumba tonada thread.

saludos!
Barry

[davidpenalosa]

. . . the typical story of the Muñequitos also being responsible for flipping the 3/2 part - seems they just played everything backward!

Hi Barry,
I believe that the Habaneros also have their own story about how that came about. The tumba tones on that tune are basically the same strokes as the typical string of bass tones heard in guarapachangeo. Both diametric positions for the bass/tones and the segundo can be justified clave-wise, according to the tendencies ("rules") heard in other rhythms.
-David

[jorge]

. . . the typical story of the Muñequitos also being responsible for flipping the 3/2 part - seems they just played everything backward!

They did record a few songs with the golpe seis por ocho (tres dos) on the front (3) side of the clave, but just about all of their old stuff and all their post 50s stuff has the golpe on the 2 side of the clave, as we play it today. What are you referring to, that the Matanceros played things backward?

I believe that the Habaneros also have their own story about how that came about. The tumba tones on that tune are basically the same strokes as the typical string of bass tones heard in guarapachangeo. Both diametric positions for the bass/tones and the segundo can be justified clave-wise, according to the tendencies ("rules") heard in other rhythms.

I went back and listened to the earliest recordings I have of both Guaguanco Matancero (Muñequitos) and Los Papines. On the earliest recordings of Guaguanco Matancero, the tumbador frequently plays a response to the golpe, with an accent on the first beat of the clave, similar to the bass accent in guarapachangueo. Examples of songs with this rhythmic figure are Chisme de la Cuchara and Los Beodos. This was in the early 50s. I did not listen to every single Papines song from that same era, but I did not hear that figure at all in the 6 or 8 songs I did listen to. Likewise, I did not hear it on Alberto Zayas' earliest recordings with Roberto Maza and Giraldo Rodriguez.

So it seems likely that that rhythmic figure originated in Matanzas and influenced the Habana style later on. To support this hypothesis, many of the songs on the Rumboleros CD have that rhythmic figure played by the tumbador. Rumboleros was a rumba group from Matanzas that traveled to La Habana on weekends to play guaguanco Matancero in La Habana. Rumboleros included Saldiguera, Pedro Vero Alfonso, Florencio Calle "Catalino", Reinaldo Brito, Pedro Fariñas and others. They formed in 1968 and were likely a major influence on the rumberos in La Habana in the late 60s, and probably popularized that rhythmic figure in La Habana. I don't know who was playing salidor (tumbador) in Rumboleros, but it was not El Goyo (Diaz). That rhythmic figure seems to have been a popular salidor floreo in Matanzas guaguanco before it caught on in La Habana and became part of the guarapachangueo.