Recordings That Cross The Clave

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Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Quinto Governor II » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:40 pm

I noticed that the cut 'Que Linda Va' on the Patato & Totico recording on the 'Verve' label crosses the clave on the guaguanco rhythm. After playing congas for 10 years now its only been the last 3 or so that I have been gaining a fuller understanding of clave. Prior to then, I basically knew the different patterns, but not in the technical sense of how the music relates to it. I'm getting a better understanding, however; I still find it difficult to make sense of it all. Anyway how rare is it to hear a recording that has the clave crossed in your experience, and do you sometimes break the rule yourself, and for what reason or purpose? Another question is - do Cuban's - most or some refer to 2/3 and 3/2 based on the grouping of the 5 beats according to how they sound, as opposed to where the beats fall in a bar?
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Congadelica » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:38 pm

I think you may be getting confused . it is not cruzao you are hearing improvisation of Tumba and quinto coversations . I recomend you study with someone who understands the Rumba , you will save time in the long run .

the matrix of Rumba is illusive if you are trying to understand by just listening to recordings .

Just my 2cents
Marco
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby JohnnyConga » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:38 am

I agree with Congadelica...I will also tell you that they are playing Guaguanco in 3/2 clave ...and it's not cruzao...we have also kinda become what i like to call 'rumbasized' ..we just automatically can think that everything is in 3/2 'rumba clave'...so when we do hear an actual 3/2 Guaguanco, which is rare these days, it almost sounds 'cruzao' to us today...also on that recording and others sometimes the cat playing the clave wasn't part of the ensemble and was 'hangin' ...and sombody said play the claves!...but of course during a recording session when it was live like that, nobody really made any clave corrections ..they played thru it..Johnny Conga
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:12 am

Congadelica wrote:the matrix of Rumba is illusive if you are trying to understand by just listening to recordings .
Marco

So true, there is a world of difference between a live rumba situation and rumba recordings.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:47 pm

Quinto Governor II wrote: . . how rare is it to hear a recording that has the clave crossed in your experience, Another question is - do Cuban's - most or some refer to 2/3 and 3/2 based on the grouping of the 5 beats according to how they sound, as opposed to where the beats fall in a bar?


Governor,
It sounds like you need to get a copy of my book The Clave Matrix:

http://www.unlockingclave.com/volume-1- ... atrix.html

All is explained.

8)

Can you expand on the last part of the your quote above? What exactly do you mean by "the clave crossed"? Are you referring to the segundo being played on the three-side of clave? That is an older style of playing segundo that fell out of favor by the late 1950s. You can hear the segundo played that way on rumba recordings from the early and mid-50s (Mongo Santamaria, Carlos Vidal, Ignacio Piñeiro, Chano Pozo ['47], Alberto Zayas, Los Muñequitos, etc.). I am currently investigating archival field recordings from Cuba, done in the 1940s. They played it that way back in the 40s as well. Older guys like Mario Bauza and Tito Puente considered playing the segundo on the three-side to be the only correct way to do it. Of course, most of the old rumberos who were around back then have passed away and so that particular arrangement is no longer heard.

Concerning the 3-2, 2-3 terminology and concept, it was probably created in New York City by Mario Bauza (a Cuban) and is not used by Cubans today (if ever). Cuban folklorists have never used it. The 3-2, 2-3 terminology and concept was created as a way of identifying which side of clave the harmonic progression begins on in popular music. North American and European percussionists have also used the concept as a means of identifying which side of clave a particular part enters or the main onbeat emphasis of a part.

In an attempt to address the rhythms in terms that their European or American students understand, some Cuban drummers have attempted to use the 3-2, 2-3 terminology. The Cuban teachers tend to use it as a way of referencing the cluster of clave strokes, rather than sides of clave, which often results in the students being more confused than before they asked the question. My advise is to not ask a Cuban whether something is in 3-2 or 2-3, but to simply ask them to clap clave against the part.

By the way, while the two supportive drums are capable of playing tones in any number of spots (there's columbia and guarapachangeo too), the quinto remains in its fixed relationship to clave. I'll be announcing the release of my latest book Rumba Quinto soon. It has over 400 examples in both standard staff and box notation.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Quinto Governor II » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:03 am

Congadelica wrote:I think you may be getting confused . it is not cruzao you are hearing improvisation of Tumba and quinto coversations . I recomend you study with someone who understands the Rumba , you will save time in the long run .

the matrix of Rumba is illusive if you are trying to understand by just listening to recordings .

Just my 2cents
Marco



My understanding is that the 2 open tones of the tres Golpe should be played opposite or after the first 2 strokes of 3/2 rumba clave. I'm hearing 2 open tones coinciding with 2 strokes of clave continually. I don't hear any improvising of the 2 open tones. The pattern doesn't vary. The sound of them is rather low, but they are being played in the space of the 2 open tones of the tres golpe pattern of guaguanco as far as I can tell. Again as I understand it, those two - the 2 strokes of clave grouped together as quarter-notes and the 2 open tones of the Havana tres Golpe - act as a call and response, if I understand Mike Spiro's explanation on congamasterclass.com.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Quinto Governor II » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:10 am

JohnnyConga wrote:I agree with Congadelica...I will also tell you that they are playing Guaguanco in 3/2 clave ...and it's not cruzao...we have also kinda become what i like to call 'rumbasized' ..we just automatically can think that everything is in 3/2 'rumba clave'...so when we do hear an actual 3/2 Guaguanco, which is rare these days, it almost sounds 'cruzao' to us today...also on that recording and others sometimes the cat playing the clave wasn't part of the ensemble and was 'hangin' ...and sombody said play the claves!...but of course during a recording session when it was live like that, nobody really made any clave corrections ..they played thru it..Johnny Conga


Hey JC you seem to imply that at least something is going wrong on this recording.
"also on that recording and others sometimes the cat playing the clave wasn't part of the ensemble and was 'hangin' ...and sombody said play the claves!...but of course during a recording session when it was live like that, nobody really made any clave corrections ..they played thru it..Johnny Conga"
Is it or not?
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby windhorse » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:55 pm

Listening to the song now.. Yeah, it's that old style with the Havana style two note Tres Dos on the first two strokes of clave.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Quinto Governor II » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:38 am

windhorse wrote:Listening to the song now.. Yeah, it's that old style with the Havana style two note Tres Dos on the first two strokes of clave.


So, Is that now considered wrong by a lot of drummers today, and would they call that crossing the clave? How does right one day become wrong the next? I also noticed today that on the Guaguanco Conjunto Guaguanco Matancero - Papin Y Sus Rumberos recording that they use what I thought was the '7 stroke yumba clave' on some of the guaguanco's - Cantar Maravilloso for one. This really doesn't help me appreciate the so-called rules of clave, if in fact thier are rules.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby jorge » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:46 am

I just went back and listened to Que Linda Va carefully. The tres dos definitely starts the song playing the two open tones on top of the first two strokes of clave. This is considered crossed clave in modern guaguanco, and will get you kicked out (or worse) from contemporary Cuban rumbas before the singer even starts. As people have said, this was the norm or at least acceptable in the 50s and early 60s in Cuba, evidenced by the groups and drummers David listed and others. Even very recently, I went to see the Conga Kings, out of respect for Francisco Aguabella the week after he passed, and Candido played tres dos that way. Giovanni and Papo Pepin let it slide and played over it, neither of them dared argue with the 89 year old guy, and he didn't object to their playing either. It is not wrong, it is just old school style. I would love to hear how they play clave / tres dos on the old Harold Courlander and Richard Alan Waterman recordings from the 40s, if the clave / tres dos placement is always the same or if it differs on different songs.

In Que Linda Va, however, I believe this was unintended and was a mistake that was not caught by anyone (including Totico, Arsenio, and other mayores) until late in the song. I think the problem was with the tres dos player (Papaito?) not the clave player (probably Totico) because in the beginning, the clave comes in with the cata and everyone is in time except the tres dos. The gallo and coro are all with the clave/cata. Patato plays through it, but after his solo, you can hear him stop playing quinto and play the tres dos part on quinto a few times, until the tres dos player flips his part to be on the other side of clave. He was probably giving the tres dos player "the look" while he showed him the part. The song ends like that, with the tres dos and clave as we play them today. Arsenio's tres guitar is so strong and hip, and Patato's quinto and the lead and coro singing are so beautiful, the tres dos conga part doesn't even really matter if it is crossed for most of the song. I wouldn't have done a retake either, that take came out killer except for that one flaw, and in the 60s I am sure very very few people caught the mistake.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby jorge » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:09 am

QG, you ask how does "right" one day become "wrong" the next? In the Mariel Cuban immigration in May, 1980, the Cubans brought the new clave style to the US. In the Central Park rumba, there were lots of fights over that. Daniel Ponce, Puntilla, and Ignacio Berroa were turning both the Latin Jazz and the rumba scenes in NYC upside down that year and the next, and always played what we are considering the modern placement of clave and tres dos. Before that, most people in the Central Park rumbas played tres dos in what we would now call crossed clave, and those that didn't usually got outnumbered and pushed to play it crossed. I am not sure when the transition happened in Cuba, but it was in 1980 that the modern concept of clave took over in NYC and since then, it generally wins out. Clearly, some of the Cubans who knew played the modern style in NYC in the 1960s, but it was not the dominant style in the park rumbas.

Interestingly, there seems to be an anti-Cuban backlash in the Central Park rumba this summer, pushed by some of the Puerto Rican old timers, who are now starting to cross the clave on purpose and will even flip it back to the crossed form if the clave player switches to make it sound "right". We just let them finish the song, then the Cuban contingent gets back on the drums and we play the next song our way. I think that some of the older pre-Mariel rumberos never felt comfortable with the post-Mariel clave and a couple who still come to the rumbas are now rebelling. These same guys have been fighting with the Cubans over lots of different issues in the rumbas for the past 30 years, and now they are just being more stubborn with respect to the clave.

In my opinion, the modern style sounds richer, more intricate, and funkier. It is also easier to hear the clave over the other parts when the other parts do not hit exactly on the clave strokes, making it easier to stay in time. It is hard to switch, you either get in one habit or the other. It took me a few years to make the transition.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:15 am

Quinto Governor II wrote:How does right one day become wrong the next?


The short answer is: that's the nature of aural traditions. Usually you need to be up on contemporary practices in order to participate. I can understand how receiving conflicting information can be frustrating though. I continue to find conflicting information.

The two possible positions of the guaguancó segundo have caused more than one drummer to conclude that "everything is everything."
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby Thomas Altmann » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:03 am

This really doesn't help me appreciate the so-called rules of clave, if in fact thier are rules.


There are only hard-and-fast rules for newcomers to the field. The more you dive into the matter, the more you realize the necessity to differentiate. You have to consider the style and the history of the music, for instance. The rules of clave are based on precedence. They are also at first unwritten and guided by (sometimes personal) feeling. And some "rules" are softer than others in particular situations.

It makes a big difference whether you decide to disregard the - occasionally confusing - subject of clave altogether or whether you are ready to learn step by step what has been done, what can be done, and what can be done only by exception, and under which conditions. Once you get past that, you can really play with the clave. After all, we still are free artists. But the wise musician should know when to step out of harmonic or rhythmic rules and when better stay within, and why.

I would say that I could hear the difference whether a musician crosses the clave consciously at a certain point or whether he has no clue whatsoever.

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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby bongosnotbombs » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:21 pm

I know there are several accepted ways to play each of the drum parts, but many of the variations almost make it impossible to play cruzao. There are several variation I see played where both the salidor and the tres dos play an accented bass note on the bombo, which just couldn't work if the golpes were on the wrong side.

Just an aside on the Cuban Havana clave thing. Carlos Aldama, who is in his mid 70's and originally from Havana, won't let you play crossed for a second. The yambu he teaches also has the tres dos playing a bass note on the bombo and the golpes on the 2 side.
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Re: Recordings That Cross The Clave

Postby jorge » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:55 pm

"Everything is everything", I haven't heard that one in about 35 years! It is true, though (just don't think about it too much). Meaning music is music, and clave or no clave, you can play however it sounds good to you and your audience. For most styles of music, crossed clave is no problem, and not worth worrying about. If you want your music to sound Cuban, however, you need to adhere strictly to clave. Playing Cuban music with Cuban musicians for Cuban audiences will force your hand. Playing in clave is a habit that comes with much listening, much practice, and much playing with others who also play in clave. Playing out of clave or crossing the clave more than occasionally can break that habit and make it much more difficult to play in clave when you want to. That is one of the reasons that a lot of Cuban musicians will immediately correct the person or even stop the song and start over if someone crosses clave. It is not just arrogance, there is a method to the Cuban madness. So some of us choose to just stay in clave all the time and play Cuban music as much as possible. Others choose to play free style most of the time, and then try to play in clave when necessary, although that takes a lot more musical training and talent. It is all personal taste. Everything is everything.
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