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Carlos Aldama, who is in his mid 70's and originally from Havana, won't let you play crossed for a second.

On a toque de santo in Parraga, La Habana, I witnessed that Armando "El Zurdo" stopped the tambor as a young akpwón had crossed the clave in a song sequence.

On the other hand, we can hear how somebody like Jerry Gonzalez (who surely knows how to place a Guaguancó over the clave) played the segunda in unison with the clave alongside Manny Oquendo in the Conjunto Libre. He is also one of the congueros who decides to play the large tumba in a Guaracha on the 2-side of the clave. The conga groove in the Celia Cruz / Johnny Pacheco recording of "Quimbara" (played by a Johnny Rodriguez)* is the most tasteful Guaguancó interpretation I have heard, and it's in unison with the 3-side of the clave.

I remember we played a cover version of a Salsa number that had a heavy accent on "2" on the 3-side of the clave. I cringed at first, but somehow I had to concede that the accent had its musical (and emotional) function in this particular place.

I find that these instances prove more clave consideration than a handful of Cuban arrangements made by people who look upon the clave as a dogma that must be discarded. (This, too, forms part of clave history!)

You have to know what to play in a given situation, and why. Clave: yes, absolutely; the question is only: How do we deal with it? That's my point of view.

Thomas

* Was this Johnny Rodriguez Jr. "Dandy" or maybe the senior?

I think the choice of playing the segundo on the three-side by Carlos Aldama, Manny Oquendo and Celia Cruz reflects a much earlier time when these elders learned the music. The musicians that began the NYC scene, like Mario Bauza and Tito Puente, were also of that generation. The career of Tito Puente in particular kept that old way alive for decades here in the States.

On the other hand, I can't recall a Cuban recording from 1960 onward where that particular placement of the segundo is used.
-David

PS
I think Dandy has been around since way back then.

I'm sorry gentleman, perhaps my post was not clear, I have since edited it . The point I was trying to make, is that Carlos Aldama teaches the pattern in such a way that it is impossible to play the tones on the 3 side because in the pattern he teaches contains a bass stroke on the bombo. Since Carlos is the oldest Havana rumbero around here that I know of, I thought it might be relevant.

Thanks for clarifying. I indeed misunderstood you to be saying the opposite.
-David

Thanks! For all the responses. A lot of food for thought for me. Have a few more questions about clave. Would like to hear you guy's analysis, or interpretations of the clave that is use in a lot of guarapachanguero's. It seems to me to not have the typical rumba clave feel, but rather a feel in between son clave and rumba clave? Yoruba Andavo is the group that comes to mind, where I hear this clave. One more question. Do you guys play all strokes of clave at the same volume or do you accent any of the stokes. Is the bombo note the second note in 3/2 rumba clave, and what note is the ponche (sp) note on, and how are they used when playing the different parts of a guaguanco?

Yambu,
I cannot address your question directly, but in general, there is a common practice of playing some strokes of rumba clave in displaced positions, that fall in-between the triple and duple-pulse "grids." Have you seen forum member James' webpage on this issue?

http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com

On the other hand, I can't recall a Cuban recording from 1960 onward where that particular placement of the segundo is used.

If you count Santiago into Cuba, too, I know a tune called "Elegía" by the group Moncada that has this feature (on "Credenciales", rec. 1974). This is not a rumba ensemble, but a group associated with political trova.

Thomas

Quinto Governor II wrote:... It seems to me to not have the typical rumba clave feel, but rather a feel in between son clave and rumba clave? Yoruba Andavo is the group that comes to mind, where I hear this clave...

Please tell us specific songs of Yoruba Andabo so we can listen for what you are talking about.

Quinto Governor II wrote:It seems to me to not have the typical rumba clave feel, but rather a feel in between son clave and rumba clave? Yoruba Andavo is the group that comes to mind, where I hear this clave.

I find this really hard to believe. It's the same clave.

Quinto Governor II wrote:One more question. Do you guys play all strokes of clave at the same volume or do you accent any of the stokes. Is the bombo note the second note in 3/2 rumba clave, and what note is the ponche (sp) note on, and how are they used when playing the different parts of a guaguanco?

Same volume, but that pick-up note right before the "big three" is truncated. some people will hit the clave quicker on that strike.
Yep, bombo is the second strike.
No, you don't hit on the ponche.. that's reserved for tumbao of Salidor.

Quinto Governor II wrote:It seems to me to not have the typical rumba clave feel, but rather a feel in between son clave and rumba clave? Yoruba Andavo is the group that comes to mind, where I hear this clave.

I find this really hard to believe. It's the same clave.

Quinto Governor II wrote:One more question. Do you guys play all strokes of clave at the same volume or do you accent any of the stokes. Is the bombo note the second note in 3/2 rumba clave, and what note is the ponche (sp) note on, and how are they used when playing the different parts of a guaguanco?

Same volume, but that pick-up note right before the "big three" is truncated. some people will hit the clave quicker on that strike.
Yep, bombo is the second strike.
No, you don't hit on the ponche.. that's reserved for tumbao of Salidor.
"ponche" - the punch, is the third note of tresillo. It's the tumbao note

What? There's no Delete Post function??

the little x will delete your post.

windhorse wrote:

Quinto Governor II wrote:It seems to me to not have the typical rumba clave feel, but rather a feel in between son clave and rumba clave? Yoruba Andavo is the group that comes to mind, where I hear this clave.

I find this really hard to believe. It's the same clave.

Quinto Governor II wrote:One more question. Do you guys play all strokes of clave at the same volume or do you accent any of the stokes. Is the bombo note the second note in 3/2 rumba clave, and what note is the ponche (sp) note on, and how are they used when playing the different parts of a guaguanco?

Same volume, but that pick-up note right before the "big three" is truncated. some people will hit the clave quicker on that strike.
Yep, bombo is the second strike.
No, you don't hit on the ponche.. that's reserved for tumbao of Salidor.
"ponche" - the punch, is the third note of tresillo. It's the tumbao note

windhorse you're right. its not even close to son clave. Was talking off the top of my head trying to describe what I was thinking of, however; I definitely hear or feel the clave differently in most guarapachanguero's. jorge 2 examples would be from the El Callejon De Los Rumberos cd (Yoruba Andavo) songs 'Y ya se formo el Rumbon' and 'El breve espacio'. The placement of the strokes seem a little closer together than guaguanco clave. The time between the 3rd and 4th strokes seems shorter to me, as well as the the time between the 1st and 2nd strokes. Granted the tempo is fast, and maybe that's where I'm getting a different feel from, but I have never notice it in faster guaguanco's. The timing seems a little rush, but has a distinctive funky feel to it just the same.

Quinto G what you are hearing is cubanismo . they swing the 4/4 to 6/8 feel using 3/2 or 2/3 however you hear it . this is example of how the feel takes over the theory . only way to find out is to play with people . to study only gives you the knowledge but the whole thing needs to be sampled in a live setting. I understand all your questions ,and repeat get down with some serious Rumberos and it all makes sense

m

I listened again to those 2 songs by Yoruba Andabo. The clave is perfect, as good as it gets. The tempo is a little slower than we usually play guaguanco in the park, but the masters like it slower. Learn to play clave like Geovani in Yoruba Andabo and you can play rumba with anyone. Play along with the record, lock in to the tres dos and the cata. Like Congadelica said, play with the best rumberos you can find. It will take a few years, and if you have talent, you will get it. Good things take time. Singing while you play helps.