Matanzas-style guaguancó

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Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby burke » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:58 pm

A while back I was shown a Tumba part for the Matanzas-style guaguancó.

I then did some searching around and stumbled on this great video (which sadly now seems to have some sound problems - but I'll post anyhow) which shows a two drum Matanzas-style guaguancó part way through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QBNFrwwafY

Although I don't speak the language I think I worked out the pattern as:

h h t t h h O t / o * tc t h h t O t /


does that seem right?
/ = bar line
Capitol O = salidor [tumbadora]
small letters = conga
* =8th note rest

Cheers

Darrell
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:43 pm

That looks right.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby Derbeno » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:45 am

Wow, what happened to the sound! Good job I downloaded it some time ago before the sound got corrupted.

Btw you have a touch after the Open on the Tumba, in this example he plays a slap. But you can indeed play a touch or even an open.

Spiro shows it basically the same way with the downbeat on the dominant hand. There is a version I've been taught by the Cubans here with the downbeat on the left hand. Quite interesting.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby burke » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:20 pm

Thank you both for that.

I actually would prefer an open or a slap to that touch. The salidor [tumbadora] part I learned had the touch there

H H T T H H T T / O * tc T H H T T /

Thanks again
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby burke » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:22 pm

ps - Derbeno,

I wish I'd downloaded it! :(
Totally sucks with that white noise.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby TONE74 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:09 pm

I broke this down a while back too ( 12th post down ) but it din't look exactly like yours. I replace it with a touch after deberno's advice and it did sound better. Was mine wrong as far as clave, is the open tumba supposed to be the 8 or 7th note?


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2081
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby bongosnotbombs » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:58 pm

TONE74 wrote:I broke this down a while back too ( 12th post down ) but it din't look exactly like yours. I replace it with a touch after deberno's advice and it did sound better. Was mine wrong as far as clave, is the open tumba supposed to be the 8 or 7th note?


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2081


In your example the low drum tones are an 8th note too late. Also as I know guaguanco matanzas, it is typical for the tres dos to only have one tone on the first down beat of the second measure. I have never seen it with what appears to be 4 tones in a row as written in your example.

There is no clave written in your example, but the first measure should be the 3 side and the second measure the 2 side.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby TONE74 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:54 pm

Thanks! so if I move my measures back one then it would be correct? Theres only one open tone on the segundo. Os means open slap. I play it correctly to clave but always thought it was written with the open last.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby bongosnotbombs » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:16 pm

TONE74 wrote:Thanks! so if I move my measures back one then it would be correct? Theres only one open tone on the segundo. Os means open slap. I play it correctly to clave but always thought it was written with the open last.

Oh, I see now, I was confused about the OS, I write slaps as S.
The original post has the all the tones in the right place, you should copy that. Of course you can play this however you want, but in my opinion those open slaps you have would detract from the melody.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby burke » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:49 pm

This leads me to another question about hhtt and direction

My natural/comfortable direct is:
hhtt
rLrL & etc

In T Cruz book one there are the various hhtt drills some which are backwards (for me)
hhtt
LrLr

I do practice the second but not very hard or seriously - here is a case where the question arises:

You could play it:
h h t t h h O t / o * tc t h h t O t /
r L r L r L r L / r * r L r L r r L

or

h h t t h h O t / o * tc t h h t O t /
r L r L r L r L / r * L r L r L r L

which reverses the direction on the 3 note of the 2nd bar - expect this is a matter of personal preference but would love to see which one most would pick

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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby bongosnotbombs » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:13 pm

The way I play it, as taught to me by Sandy Perez is similar to Tomas Cruz yet different. The right hand keeps the downbeat.

HTTHHTTT |O-THHTTH ~or~ HTTHHTTO |OTTHHTTH ~or~ HTTHHTTT |OOTHHTTH
rlrlrlrl r-rlrlrl
Well the middle drum part anyways. It places a bass note before the beat and on the beat, versus what you wrote with a bass note on the beat and after the beat. I like how this pattern reinforces the bombo note, usually along with the tumba for a unified bass sound on the bombo. Of the three variations I wrote the middle one is my favorite, if you can keep the time tight, right with the low drum, it sounds great. Actually, I don't even play Havana style guaguanco at all, I totally prefer the Matanzas style.

When I play the guaguanco on two drums, I keep it much more sparse to free my hands up and so I can play faster and leave more room for variations.

B--BB-O-|o---B-O- or B--B--O-|o---B-O-
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby Derbeno » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:32 am

Burke,
I re uploaded the version I downloaded previuosly. It's clean with no sound fubar.
May I suggest....Use RealpLayer SP to download the stuff you like. You never know when it gets pulled for whatever reason or if the utube sound gremlins F it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMtOXT_xA8Q
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby jorge » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:42 am

The Matanzas segunda (golpe) part is called seis por ocho for a reason. It is not 4/4. That YouTube demo is not the right feel for Matanzas guaguanco, he is playing it in straight 4. As Minini showed it to me, it is more 6 than 4, but pulled very slightly toward 4 from what a straight 6 would sound like. Mike Spiro calls it "playing in fix" - not 4 and not 6. Writing the part out does not do it justice, I think it is impossible to get the right feel from the written music. You have to listen really carefully to Afrocuba or Guaguanco Matancero / Muñequitos to get it. Best way is to get one of the drummers from Matanzas to show you, or someone who learned from them and really plays it right.

There is one clip on YouTube that shows it played correctly. Watch and listen to this YouTube clip carefully, then watch the clip Derbeno posted and hear the difference. The difference seems subtle at first until you listen to the evenness of all the heel-toe notes in the 4/4 version (the guy playing 2 drums) and the swing feel in the 6/8 version. Watch the right hand of the guy in Matanzas, he is not playing straight 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frhfc5oo ... re=related

Also, Mike Spiro does a pretty good job teaching it on his website, although he really only plays it in "fix" for a few seconds, he starts you out playing it in straight 4 before he explains how to change it to "fix".

That is not an easy part to learn, it took me weeks of practicing after Minini showed it to me before I could make it sound right.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby bongosnotbombs » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:19 am

Derbeno wrote:Burke,
I re uploaded the version I downloaded previuosly. It's clean with no sound fubar.
May I suggest....Use RealpLayer SP to download the stuff you like. You never know when it gets pulled for whatever reason or if the utube sound gremlins F it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMtOXT_xA8Q

In Derbeno's example both the conguero and the clave lack the proper swing. Jorge is absolutely correct. The video Jorge shows has the correct feel both with the clave and the drum part.
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Re: Matanzas-style guaguancó

Postby burke » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:05 pm

Thanks guys,

BSB - the way you rlrl in the example (if I read it correctly)- is the way that feels less natural for me. Do you also play the other direction (ie are you as comfortable in either direction)?

Derbeno - many thanks for the upload and the Realplayer info - I just downloaded it

Jorge & BSB - I hear what you are saying intellectually but I don't have enough real world experience to hear it in my body (if you know what I mean). I have M Spiros book and have read/listened/tried to feel 'fix'. Maybe someday ... not happening for me yet. I've let it go for now rather than get frustrated (which was what was happening) I will download both examples and keep listening though

Again many thanks
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