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A little discussion about playing jazz in a strong 3/4 feel.

I was playing at a jam last night and they called out Footprints I think, and the bass player begins with a real strong 3/4 rhythm. From the folkloric side I know quite a few 6/8 rhythms, that I usually apply to jazz in 6, but the jazz with the 3 feel sometimes throws me off.

When the bass is playing quarter notes in 3, what do you guys play? Sometimes I find myself a little unsure of whether to play 3 sets of paired eighth notes, or to play a 6/8 rhythm, but play it in two halves of 3 quarter notes

for example of the bass is playing

1 2 3 1 2 3 - I might play

HTOOSSHTOOSS which is a columbia middle drum part, and is more of a 6 feel.
1&2&3&1&2&3&

or I might play
HSTMOO which is bembe middle drum and more of a straight 3 feel.
123123

anyways, I'm self taught in this genre, and I can't say I'm totally sure of my approach to 3, sometimes one way feels better than others depending on the song, but in the unrehearsed jam context it can be challenging to make the decision on the fly.

I would love to hear other peoples approach to jazz in 3.

3/4 was the first triple pulse jazz and a lot of jazz musicians have mistaken 6/8 jazz, which comes out of the African and Afro-Cuban 6/8 rhythms as 3/4. "Footprints" and "Afro-Blue" have been consistently mistaken as 3/4 jazz tunes. They appear in the Real Book in that time signature.

The feel on the original recording of "Footprints" (from the Miles Smiles album) is 6/8, compound duple meter in other words. This is brought out most obviously at 2:23 when during Miles' solo, the rhythm section goes into 4/4 (simple duple meter). In conguero's lingo, it's like they went from columbia to guaguancó.

So, I would make the suggestion that your band play the song in duple meter like the Miles Davis Quintet originally recorded it. It makes the song far more pliable and interesting (switching from 6/8 to 4/4 and back) and there's no excuse for jazz musicians not to be able to play 6/8 jazz in this day and age. Also, I imagine you will be able to contribute more of your conga chops to the song.
-David

Thanks for your input Dave. Yes, I always feel more comfortable playing in 6 or with a 6 feel, and even more so playing Afro-blue. Moving aside from the actual song, last night it just happened to be Footsteps, with the keys asking for the strong 3 feel and the bass certainly playing three. This was actually a unrehearsed open jazz jam, you know like an open mic, and that's what I was presented with. Actually, I decided to sit out that particular song out, as the 3 they were playing was just so straight, I couldn't quite seem to get a rhythm to fit in my head. I've played Footsteps before with other people with a 6 feel.

Is it just me or does a applying a 6 on a 3 just feel off sometimes and sometimes on? In other words, sometimes I feel the groove playing 6 with a 3, and other times not. Actually it can kind of feel like I am either playing twice as fast as everbody else, or sometimes 1/2 as slow.

I'm not sure what you mean by not fitting, other than I'm reminded that the feel of "Footprints" is like a swung 6/8 bell. A straight 6/8 bell conflicts if the rest of the band is swinging it. However, the foundation is still the six-over-four cross-rhythm.

When the jazzers say they want to play the song in 3/4, they really mean 6/4. In other words, there would be two measures of 3/4 per bass line. Check out this chart of "Footprints":



It's written in 6/4; there are six quarter notes per bass line.
-David

Well you know, I just programmed a 3/4 beat on my drum machine, just 3 different bass hits, 1 2 3, and gave it some practice. I think I can explain better about not fitting. Anyways, usually in my head playing a 6/8 rhythm, I'm instinctively counting 1 & A, 2 & A, etc or singing the rhythm with that kind of feel, you know the four subdivisions of 3....but when you do that the count of 2 falls after the bass's 2, so I guess it feels off, even though the notes are played in cadence, it's the feel caused by my internal clock. However, just now during practice with the drum machine, I played the same 6/8 rhythm, but counted 1&2&3&, then of course the count coincided with the notes of the bass. Same rhythm, same cadence, but a different feel created by my internal counting.

I guess it's the application of counting. Sure the bass is playing two measure of 3 as a way of playing 6/8, but he's counting in his head 1,2,3 (probably?). So say I count a 6/8 in my head like I would normally 1&A2&A, my count is either right on top, his 123 is my 1&a, or I play 1&A2&A in one measure of his 123 count, so that his 2 falls on my (1)A, which in a folkloric context that kind of cross rhythm feels natural, but in jazz feels off, at least to me. The bass seems to be marking out the secondary pulse of a 6/8 with his 3/4 bass line, and I need to count that way too to feel on. If I count the primary pulse, I feel off.

Seems like I read something about this phenomenon of 2 divisions of three vs. 3 divisions of 2 in a book recently.

bongosnotbombs wrote:Sure the bass is playing two measure of 3 as a way of playing 6/8, but he's counting in his head 1,2,3 (probably?).

Yes. I participated in two different performances of "Afro-Blue" with two different bands last year. We did Mongo's version, but the charts were written in 3/4. Consequently, all of the other musicians counted the piece incorrectly.

bongosnotbombs wrote:If I count the primary pulse, I feel off.

I think you may just need to do it more.

bongosnotbombs wrote:Seems like I read something about this phenomenon of 2 divisions of three vs. 3 divisions of 2 in a book recently.

Thanks. I didn't want to be the person to say it.
-David

This is a great topic of discussion, thanks BnB & David for the thread.
I love jazz groups that have conga players.
The conga doesn't get much love in the jazz world - i hope that's always changing.

I have tried to develop my style in 3 over time. To me it starts with what the drummer is doing. If he's playing a swing-feel I have to conform to that. With a waltz feel I hear the traditional sound of the gospel church feel in 3 - with the emphasis on the 2 & 3. Like you might play in church on the tamourine. I try to swing the 2 & 3 count to fit with the drummer's waltz and they seem to be OK with that. During an intense solo I might even pick up the tambourine and accent the 2 & 3. If the drummer is good, I might even try the 6/8 bell and see if he can go into the Cuban 6/8 to inspire the soloist. If that works we can always come out of the Cuban and back to the swing feel as the solo winds down.

I listen to a lot of gospel music in 3 and Dave Brubeck stuff - he made some great tunes in 3 and other time sigs.

So Mike, how do you fit the 6/8 bell into the 3/4? Over one or two measures? And how would you fit a conga part? I never play gospel, but I do play jazz. Jazzers are pretty open to the congas around here, but actually I see very few congueros playing jazz, even here. And frequently I playing without drums, so I've gotten accustomed to following tight with whatever feel the bass is laying down.

and David you are also right, it came to me when I went to bed last night, if I imagine the bass pattern of playing a tresillo pattern, instead of marking the beats (123), it would be easier for me to count the primary pulse of a 6/8 (1&a2&a) as I usually do. I guess it just takes a mental shift to not try to play on top of the bass like you would in 4.

bongosnotbombs wrote:. . . if I imagine the bass pattern of playing a tresillo pattern, instead of marking the beats (123), it would be easier for me to count the primary pulse of a 6/8 (1&a2&a) as I usually do.

That's right. If you listen to Mongo's original version of "Afro-Blue" (from the album Afro Roots), you hear it begin with the bass playing six even notes: 123 123. Once the percussion comes in, it's obvious that the song is based on 6-over-4 (or two cells of 3:2), what we call 6/8. In African-based rhythms the duple beat scheme is primary and the triple beat scheme is secondary.

In a jazz waltz (3/4) the triple beats are primary. Elvin Jones used duple beats in 3/4, but he used them as intermittent cross-beats, not as the foundation. Conor Guilfoyle demonstrates this rhythmic technique in the following Youtube clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEAyWsTL ... re=related

To summarize:
• In a 3/4 jazz waltz ("My Favorite Things") the 3 beats are primary and an intermittent duple beat scheme is employed for cross-rhythmic contrast (2-over-3).
• In an Afro 6/8 jazz tune ("Afro Blue") the 2 beats are primary and the 3 beats are secondary. The 3-over-2 cross-rhythm is the complete gestalt and is maintained throughout the entire piece.
-David