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An academic question

PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:27 pm
by Tone
HI there highly learned friends ( David are you still lurking around here?)

I wonder if you could help me remember the name, or rather the adjective that qualifies rhythms that stress both the one and the subdivision next to it.
As in Fela's afrobeat xx..xx..xx..xx..
or Brazil aguere xx..x.x.
or Bravum xx..x..
and thousands of African rhythms...

I have it on the tip of my tongue for months. It is something like iambic ( but I think that is for Shakspearian poetry).
Also rhythms that don't do that also have a name. What is it?

many thanks

Re: An academic question

PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:23 am
by burke
iambic pentameter - 10 syllables to the line: de dum de dum de dum de dum de dum [weak/strong]
"There is a tide in the affairs of men"

Which helps you with your real question ... not one bit ... :wink:

Re: An academic question

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:06 am
by davidpenalosa
Tone wrote:I wonder if you could help me remember the name, or rather the adjective that qualifies rhythms that stress both the one and the subdivision next to it.
As in Fela's afrobeat xx..xx..xx..xx..


Hi Tone,
That's an excellent question. I call those strokes onbeats. 4/4 onbeats are the diametric opposite of offbeats:
..xx..xx..xx..xx

In African-based music fundamental pulses are often "doubled," grouped with the very next subdivision. For example, the common conga drum tumbao can play either a single tone on ponche, or a "doubled ponche."

In the case of onbeats, the pairs of strokes are made up of a stroke on the beat (first x), followed by a stroke off the beat (second x). While the offbeat strokes definitely propel the rhythm forward, the consistent strokes on-the-beat give the pattern a grounded quality.
-David

Re: An academic question

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:32 pm
by Tone
Hey Dave,

thanks for the answer, but I do believe there is an academic specific word for it.
Anyway it will come my way some day...

hope the books are doing well...I know they are.

All the best

Re: An academic question

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:21 pm
by davidpenalosa
Tone wrote:. . . I do believe there is an academic specific word for it.


Oh, I understand what you were asking now, an established academic term. Please post it if you come across it. It would be very useful.
-David

I'm thinking "cut time" or "2/4"

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:26 am
by Miguel7
I haven't studied iambic pentameter since college (lol) but in musical terms what you're talking about reminds me of the bell patterns in Puerto Rican plena. The bongocero plays that pattern exactly on the campana and the timbalero plays all four beats (the "xx" and the "..") but with emphasis on the first two.

Now in my study of plena I've read that the time signature is "2/4" or "cut time". That may not sound very academic but it seems to fit the rhythmic pattern you're talking about. Other genres with 2/4 time are merengue and samba. Now I don't know anything about samba, but the merengue rhythm on piano fits nicely with that beat as well (I'm talking about modern merengue, of course).

Hope that helps,
Miguel :D

Re: I'm thinking "cut time" or "2/4"

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:17 pm
by davidpenalosa
Miguel7 wrote:. . . plena I've read that the time signature is "2/4" or "cut time". That may not sound very academic but it seems to fit the rhythmic pattern you're talking about. Other genres with 2/4 time are merengue and samba.


The term cut-time (2/2) refers to a time signature used in a transcription, and in this type of music, does not necessarily indicate an inherent rhythmic structure. 2/4 is not cut-time by the way. 4/4 is common-time (often indicated by the letter C). Salsa and Latin jazz charts are often written in cut-time (2/2) when the tune has a fast tempo.

Most salsa and Latin jazz charts are in fact, written in cut-time (two measures per clave, two main beats per measure, the regular pulses represented by eighth-notes), but the 4/4 (or C) time signature is used. This has led to a lot of confusion concerning the music's basic structure, how it is counted. Some musicians are now using the cut-time signature instead of 4/4. For example, the great Cuban drummer "El Negro" uses cut-time in his instruction book.

Does this sound confusing? It is. Essentially, early conga drummers in the U.S. misappropriated musical terms and notation methods. "Street drummers" in this country typically use a combination of formal musical terms, Cuban terms and drummer slang. This is a subject that I have researched quite thoroughly, but I don't think it is the topic in this thread, so I will stop here. If you want to continue, perhaps we should begin a new thread.
-David

Right on.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:05 pm
by Miguel7
Thanks for your input. Given your knowledge of the "language" of music you might be the best one to answer the original question. It sounds like you've studied conga terminology a lot more extensively than I have, and if you ever did start a thread about it I think it would be a good read. :)

Anyway, you were right that cut time is 2/2 and not 2/4... my problems is I don't read sheet music (though I get the basic concept of what a time signature is and how it works). Also because of the way both merengue and plena are, I hear it all in 4/4. It seems to me that those time signatures are more or less interchangeable, especially is *salsa* (with its 2-measure clave and very "not-cut" rhythmic patterns lol) can be written in 2/2 time.

Re: Right on.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:15 pm
by davidpenalosa
Miguel7 wrote:It seems to me that those time signatures are more or less interchangeable, . . .


Pretty much, as long as you tap your foot four times per clave cycle. The problems arise if you tap your foot eight times per clave in moderate to fast tempos.
-David