Do you know how to dance.

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Do you know how to dance.

Postby joaozinho » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:40 pm

Hello guys,I being thinking about the possible correlation betwenn knowing how to dance and the ability to play drums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX4UqaWzjh4

This man do it all...
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby dabesa » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:16 pm

Hola amigo,
I do both too, not a the level of the guy in the video unfortunately :)

I started dancing Salsa many years ago and then evolved into playing Congas couple years ago.
I must say that being used to listen the music and "feel" the beat while dancing helped my feeling of rhythm a lot.
In the same way, learning to play Congas made me understand more about the structure of the music and the rhythms, helping me to improve my musicality in the dance.

Knowing how to play Congas, for example, facilitated me learning how to dance on2.
For many people, dancing on2 means just start moving on the 2nd beat... but thanks to my Conga knowledge, I know that dancing on2 means listening to the Congas and blend into the music with a different feeling...
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby Derbeno » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:18 am

Once I began to play for this afro cuban dance class I began to really understand the rhythms.

We must never forget that our music is ultimately played so that the dancers can dance.
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby Samba » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:09 am

I don;t think it's possible to play African derived rhythms without a grasp of dance. A player who doesn't know which beat the step goes on,doesn't really know how to play rhumba.
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby Thomas Altmann » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:54 pm

Now here is a question for the rumberos:

I have learned that the quinto strokes and rhythmic patterns do not correspond 1:1 to any specific dance figures in rumba. Perhaps one must differentiate between Columbia and the couple dances; but from what I have seen, the quintero has a range of freedom in how to comment, paraphrase or translate the dance and define the contours of a movement.

I have heard the theory (or should I say, dogma?) that any good drummer has to be a fair dancer as well, too often. To be honest, I have taken classes in Orisha dance, Lindy Hop and tap dance, and it did not have any effect on my drumming. I love the rumba dances; but what can I do, if I'm not that talented physically? I mean, there is a reason for me being a drummer and not a singer or dancer.

I did not have the chance to work with dancers on a regular basis, but in a few instances I played together with dancers from the Conjunto Folklórico, and they loved my quinto playing. I just watched them and adapted the flow of my phrasing to their movements, or what I thought they would do next. That was all.

The point is: I always watched the dancers, and I loved what they did, and that seems to have made it for me. It might be sexier to be a skilled dancer, too, but it just doesn't come easy to me.

Thomas

P.S.: Where is the "question"? you might rightfully ask. The question is: Does anybody know better than me, and are there indeed fixed correspondences between quinto patterns and dance figures /steps (as opposed to a mere sketchy commenting and supporting the dance)?
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby JohnnyConga » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:08 pm

Thomas I am not a dancer but i was taught by 2 men on how to play FOR dancers...comment, paraphrase and translation of movements is exactly the way to approach playing for dancers.. i also learned that as a player in an ensemble that I too had to learn the dances but not as a dancer but as the lead drummer or accompaniment drummer...2 different roles of course..I am not a dancer by no means ..never learned to dance Rumba(didnt have it in the Bronx when I was growing up)...but could Salsa dance ok...i enjoy playing for dancers ....I learned very early the "drum goes hand to foot"...also depending on the dance forms I believe would depend on the playing approaches...Bembe, Rumba, etc...there are plenty of rhythms that also do not include a 'lead' drum and just play a 'looped' rhythm...for dancers to warm up to...this has been my experience having worked for the New York City Ballet, Olatunji Drummers and Dancers, Chuck Davis Afro-American Dance Co. Mattie Lascoe Caribbean Splash, and the Miami City Ballet co as a drummer...
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:13 pm

Thanks for your affirmative words, Johnny. Yeah, I forgot to mention those two Salsa dance workshops that my respective girlfriends dragged me to join. You know, I guess I've always been a mental dancer, so to say. I see movements when I hear and play movements, albeit not always human movements.

Once I played the kagan drum in Atsiakbekor, a dance rhythm from Ghana. There, the master drummer plays rhythmic figures on his big Adsimevu drum that correspond exactly to certain dance figures (and gestures) in an obligatory manner. I suppose that this is common in most of traditional West-African music.

I Cuba, Milian Galí told us, the bonkó enchemiyá in Abakuá drumming still has a similar role; playing clearly defined rhythmic motives that guide the ireme. I didn't have a chance to verify that, of course ... I am not Abakuá.

In batá drumming, I know of one instance where the dancer reacts upon a conversation in Meta Changó. Mind, here it is the dancer reacting to the drummers.

In general, my suggestion would be; dance practice is the best to help your dancing, and drumming practice is the best to help your drumming. Same like, some people suppose that my hand drumming has an influence on my drum set playing. It has but one influence that I'm aware of - it diminishes my reflexes on the stick rebound and my finger technique!

Thomas
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:11 pm

I feel very lucky that I began learning drums, I also began accompanying classes in the w dances. I am certain that my confusion was lessened because of that.

From what I have been able to learn, the direct correlation between quinto and rumba dance steps has been lost, and is only observable today in old video footage, and in some performances of columbia. This was discussed in an earlier thread.

I intended to learn how to dance salsa for 20 years, but never did. Finally, when I was in my 40s, I hired a dance tutor and took a two-week course at the ENA in Havana, so that I could learn to dance. At the audition in Cuba, there were salsa dance teachers from all over the world taking the course with me. Some of them were put in the beginning class because they could not step in time. I was put in the advanced class, because I could. However, after a couple of days, I was bumped down to the beginning class, where I belonged, because I could not comprehend the choreographic patterns.

There is an international salsa dance craze going on, but from what I have witnessed in this country, the emphasis is on the upper body patterns, not stepping in-time. There is a salsa dance teacher in my town, who for the life of him, cannot step in time to the music. When I go see the local salsa band, I look out onto the dance floor to see if any women are stepping in time. Often, no one is. I can't handle dancing out-of-time (what's the point?!), so most of the time, I am a wallflower, or I sit in with the band.

When I returned from that ENA course, I re-vamped the material played by my salsa band because I had a better understanding of what dancers needed. The most significant change I made was to slow the tempo down.
-David
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby Derbeno » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:46 pm

David, maybe they were dancing on2 rather rather than on1, which may make them appear off beat. I have been dancing salsa for about 18 years on both on1 and 2. However, I have giving up dancing regularly as the scene has now evolved into a showing off spectacle with the more and more complex moves with the ladies doing as many spins as possible. Furthermore, I find the same ol' same ol' Nuyorican salsa rather bland.

On a recent trip back to London I attended a big Easter event with multiple dance rooms. In the on2 room every one had a serious face whilst dancing with, this distant and serious look on their faces. I quickly left and spent all night in the Timba room; the music was inventive and created so much pure joy and energy, men and women had a big grin on their faces and everyone genuinely had whale of a time.

Back to the topic,....this music is for dancers, by playing for dancers it gives a better understanding of the music, no matter what part . From basic Tumbao to the Quinto or a Bomba baril interacting with a solo dancer. This in turn makes should you a better dancer.
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:41 pm

Derbeno,
They taught dancing on "2" (in reality stepping on 1-and, an offbeat) for son, and dancing on 1 for casino (what we call salsa). Although I can't say with certainty, I believe that the problem was more serious—they were stepping out-of-time, their metric sense was off.
-David
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby pavloconga » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:52 am

joaozinho wrote:Hello guys,I being thinking about the possible correlation betwenn knowing how to dance and the ability to play drums..


Knowing and understanding both is certainly a big advantage. Sometimes though someone can be a great drummer but not really be a dancer.

It brings to mind a funny memory when I was studying in Ghana, West Africa some years ago.
One night, the drum ensemble had been playing for several hours in the village (in a social/party setting, the equivalent of a social rumba in Cuba I suppose).

Towards the end of a very fun night people were being called to take a dance solo in front of the drummers. Most of the drummers and other people there were also very competent dancers. However, there was lot of laughter when they called one particular guy who was a good drummer but didn't like to dance. Though he didn't dance, he completely understood all of the dances and how they fit with the rhythmic vocabulary. He is a highly accomplished composer, arranger and choreographer - his band subsequently toured the world multiple times incl Australia and USA (The Kusun Ensemble).
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby JohnnyConga » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:25 am

Here is what a Rumbero in Cuba named "Ramiro" has to say about Dance and Columbia.....

From the book by Stephen Foehr- Dancing with Fidel a book about the feelings, sentiments, politics, music and life in Cuba today...it is a great book on travel inside Cuba and where to go as well while you are there, and what to expect...

Dance Rumba.jpg
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby Quinto Governor II » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:45 pm

I once heard it said in another Internet forum some years ago, that most American trap drummers can not dance. On the other hand when taking a djembe workshop years ago also, the instructor said that in Africa a drummer is expected to know how to dance.
As far as rumba is concerned, never brought into the notion that the drummer mimics the dancer. It may occur occasionally in columbia, but makes no sense to me in guaguanco or yambu. What may have been expressed initially long ago was the basic give and take of emotional inspiration thats takes place, not a literal stoke for step interaction between dancer and drummer.
I find it difficult to play quinto without singing. Having mainly learned the music through recordings, I have always related the quinto strokes to the vocals. Without that inspiration I'm sometimes lost.
For the record I do dance, but totally by feel, as I did with drumming, but with drumming I'm now trying to become better at knowing the time signature count of the rhythms. Not sure if dancing helps the drumming or not, but I guess I do get a general sense of being able to relate to the dancer when I'm playing - being able to actually feel what they are feeling as they dance.
A thought about salsa - rueda is becoming promoted heavily today by dance instructors, but it seems that they dance it to salsa instead of timba. I similar thing takes place with 'Dancing With The Stars' I would like it better if dances were preformed to authentic music of the dances. I know its watered down so as the general audience can relate better, but that's what happens when you've got to pay the bills.
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:04 am

@Quinto Governor:

I once heard it said in another Internet forum some years ago, that most American trap drummers can not dance.


If you go by quantity, you may be right. But in 2006 I had written an internet article titled "Jazz, Drums & Tap Dance" (http://www.ochemusic.de/arttap.htm - unfortunately in German), and my research proved that the following Jazz drummers had also been tap dancers:

Cuba Austin
Louis Bellson
Buddy Rich
Ray Bauduc
Lionel Hampton
Jo Jones
Cozy Cole
J.C. Heard
Philly Joe Jones
Earl Palmer
Steve Gadd

There are certainly more. A friend of mine told me that Max Roach could do some steps, too. He was one to hang out with Baby Laurence.

By the way, and slightly off-topic: Tito Puente and Cachao were two Latin musicians who also had a tap dance background.

Thomas
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Re: Do you know how to dance.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:54 pm

When playing lead drum Francisco Aguabella would always stare intently at the feet of the dancers present. I asked Sandy Perez on time about playing lead and he said he thinks about the feet of the dancers. For me, if there is a dancer present, it's a very simple thing to improvise when I can see their feet.

It is unfortunate in the U.S., at least in my region, how few dancers there are, it is always a treat when there is dancing at the rumba. It makes it more complete. If there aren't singers and/or dancers at a rumba, I don't even want to play. It justs seems pointless playing an endless cycle of guaguanco without singing and dancing and even the quinto eventually becomes annoying to listen to without a song or dance to respond to.
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