MAYUTO CORREA

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby Anonimo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:30 pm

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby Anonimo » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:07 pm

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby blavonski » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:25 pm

very interesting discussion, and some very good points made by many, however I'm inclined to go with Leedy on his point about distintive musical idioms becomming generic, say nothing styles with out any real language of their own. Some one rejected the idea of there being rules to musical genres that maintain their authenticity; Yet shortly after that they said that the Tumbao was swinging in a Jazz Trio situation. Well if there were no prerequisite elements in, for example Jazz, then there would have been no need for you to swing to those tunes you played, you could just play whatever, right:?:

That is a good example of there being, not rules, but integral elements that make a music what it is and without said elements, then it is lacking in true authenticity of the genre or idiom such as Latin Jazz. I agree with Leedy, when Conga replaces Drum set in Jazz, and when the accents of a particular melody are on the up instread of the down beat and not right on it, but slightly behind the beat, it becomes technically Latin Jazz. There's been so much bastardisation of Jazz, (not including the afro cuban influences, which were a blend of two distinct musical languages), over the last 40 plus years that a lot if not most young people have no clue to the history and origins, let alone the two major musical elementa that make what we call Jazz jazz, and those are that illusive and often mystifying rhythmic element known as swing ( similar to the role that the clave plays in Afro Cuban music and the second is Blues.

Due the academation of Jazz and many people who are and have been classically trained, teaching jazz in university for instance. These elements have been given short shrift and treated as secondary to harmonic sofistication and instrument virtuosity. But imagine taking the clave, implied or direct, out of Afro- cuban music and what would it sound and, or more importantly feel like? That's what happens to Jazz all the time. Hell, all those corny tunes from the 30's and 40's that get shoved down people throats as Jazz isn't even Jazz, They are mostly pop tunes with a Jazz feeling given them by the inovators back in the day and they happen tobecome so called standards. But, if you don't swing them and or add blues inflections and play them straight off the page, many if not all, sound flat as European Pancakes.
If you listen to some straight ahead Jazz recordings starting in the mid sixties, with tunes that have a so called latin flavour, you will more often than not hear the drummer playing the clave on the snare rim incorrectly so that it fits neatly into the square 4/4 or even 6/8 meter and I think that makes sense, because it's another rhythmic concept. Until I began listening to Afro Cuban music I thought it was a corrext rhymic accompaniament, and thought of it as Latin as well.

People think they can play what ever they want when it comes to jazz and I guess they can and have been doing it a long time, particularly Europeans. But, whether one wants to accept it or not, like most other genuine musical idioms, or other Art forms for that matter; Jazz as well as Afro_Cuban music, like classical or scottish bagpipe, or delta blues or Quatamalan Garifunas music is what it is because how it is played Rhthmically along with the scales and or harmonies used which are needed to keep it real. The major record industry doesn't give a crap about music's cultural authenticity...and because of that the public including musicans have grown ignorant.Like how some people really consider Taco Bell or Tex Mex, real Mexican food.

And, in my opinion Drums don't need to be loud in Jazz setting, thats another issue with drummers pounding away and not saying anything. That's what brushes are for, but Brushes are another technique that takes time to develop a real tasty feel with... that's why so many drummers avoid them; they prefer to try and play quietly with sticks, But, it's not what the melody asks for, so it loses something.
I believe that going outside of the given idomatic or rhythmic guidlines is important for self expression and creative exploration, however, as Omelenko1 writes, there needs to be first a foundation from which to come from. Ornett Colemans music was free harmonically, but it was rooted in the blues tradition and common time meter, it wasn't as free as many thought or still think it was.. that is, he wasn't just playing anything. A lot of contemporary Jazz is basic Bebop frasing over some latin rhythms or funky beats, there's nothing new there, but for those who know no better it's the latest hot music.

I'll stop here.

Peace,
Blavonski
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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby congamyk » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:41 pm

niallgregory wrote:That is not my post , you have quoted the wrong person , but as per usual i disagree with you anyway :lol: You DONT need a kit drummer when playing jazz . jazz is a very improvisational music by its very nature . Just because someone is playing percussion instruments in a jazz setting be they conga , bongo , tabla etc etc dosent mean it ceases to be jazz all of a sudden . Its just a different take on it . ........Fusion music has proved this for the last 30 years , influences from all over the globe have had a huge effect on jazz . Another argument for another day is what exactly is jazz ? Maybe people seem to think it has to have that typical swing feel for it to be jazz but tons of modern jazz is played with totally different feel . We have to start respecting each others opinions on this forum or it just going to go even further downhill than it already has . We ALL have different experiences in different genres from around the globe and long may that continue .. Niall


GOOD stuff Nial! Stay cutting-edge my brother.
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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby congamyk » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:06 pm

Re: MAYUTO CORREA... the old-time jazz players in my city would say that he is JAZZIN'.
He improvises and does his thing. If you don't feel it, that's OK, those of us that do are OK too.

The term "jazz" has come to be now be known as simply "improvised music" and includes many styles stemming from the original style(s) founded in New Orleans. There is Dixieland, Bebop, Swing, Brazilian, Latin (Cuban), 3/4 Waltz feel, Modern, Straight-Ahead, Cool/West Coast, Fusion, Funk or Soul Jazz, Smooth and more styles I didn't include within jazz.

To play "jazz" you don't even NEED a drummer, conga player or a percussionist at ALL.
Smooth jazz prooves THAT since they sometimes don't even use a drummer - they use drum machines! :lol: :roll: :lol:

Jazz can be played by a single instrument, solo sax, solo bass, solo guitar, solo piano or solo oboe. It can be played in duos, trios, etc. none of which have to have a drummer or a percussionist. So to say that jazz has to have a drummer and that the drummer has to play a certain way with a certain nuance is technically not true. Now if you are in school studying jazz drumming they WILL TEACH you to play a certain way and with certain nuances because that is their job. And yes, swing jazz drumming has rudiments, a foundation and certain traits/nuances that are appropriate, acceptable and even mandatory to SOME PEOPLE but what you do with it is your own decision.

Just remember this quote from Charlie Parker... "if you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." So I try to live and learn from all of the styles of jazz. I know rumba, I know swing, I know samba, I know gospel, soul, funk, rock, etc. I also know how to fuse certain elements and styles together in a tasetful way that doesn't denigrate any.

...peace love and jazz to all.
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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby blavonski » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:26 pm

congamyk wrote:Re: MAYUTO CORREA... the old-time jazz players in my city would say that he is JAZZIN'.
He improvises and does his thing. If you don't feel it, that's OK, those of us that do are OK too.

The term "jazz" has come to be now be known as simply "improvised music" and includes many styles stemming from the original style(s) founded in New Orleans. There is Dixieland, Bebop, Swing, Brazilian, Latin (Cuban), 3/4 Waltz feel, Modern, Straight-Ahead, Cool/West Coast, Fusion, Funk or Soul Jazz, Smooth and more styles I didn't include within jazz.

To play "jazz" you don't even NEED a drummer, conga player or a percussionist at ALL.
Smooth jazz prooves THAT since they sometimes don't even use a drummer - they use drum machines! :lol: :roll: :lol:

Jazz can be played by a single instrument, solo sax, solo bass, solo guitar, solo piano or solo oboe. It can be played in duos, trios, etc. none of which have to have a drummer or a percussionist. So to say that jazz has to have a drummer and that the drummer has to play a certain way with a certain nuance is technically not true. Now if you are in school studying jazz drumming they WILL TEACH you to play a certain way and with certain nuances because that is their job. And yes, swing jazz drumming has rudiments, a foundation and certain traits/nuances that are appropriate, acceptable and even mandatory to SOME PEOPLE but what you do with it is your own decision.

Just remember this quote from Charlie Parker... "if you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." So I try to live and learn from all of the styles of jazz. I know rumba, I know swing, I know samba, I know gospel, soul, funk, rock, etc. I also know how to fuse certain elements and styles together in a tasetful way that doesn't denigrate any.

...peace love and jazz to all.


This is my last post on this Jazz topic. :D
I don't know where if anywhere anyone wrote that to play Jazz, there needs to be a percussionist, but I agree, you certainly dodn't.
Any genre of music can be played with a solo instrument, people do it on the streets of City's all over the world everyday. However, what that solo musician is playing can be identified if he or she is playing in a particular idiom or genre, likewise it can be easily discerned if they are hogwashing it and not improvising from a ground rhythmic or tonal concept particular to the type of music being played. Also, to play a convicingly satisfying solo Jazz performance one, in my opinion has to have internalized those rythmic element that I mentioned before. Most need some kind of rythm instrument behind them to give that ground beat and or harmonic pattern. It's not a simple as that. But, of course, it all depends on where and how an individual is informed about a particular music. I've had numerous discussions with European musicians that reject the American in particular African American idea that Blues and Swing are neccessary to authentic Jazz, and frankly for no other reason than because they simply couldn't grasp it in it's authentic form, so they just say it doesn't matter as long as you're playing some dominant seventh, minor and 2, 5, 1 chord progressions etc.. then that's what counts.And then there's the free Jazz contingent...anything goes and call it Jazz. And if they think they're swingin', who am I to say they're not; that's their understanding of it. But, it certainly isn't mine.:cry:

I agree that drumming, as with the learning of all instruments, has its rudiments connected with the genre of music one wants to play and if one doesn't for whatever reason learn those rudiments, well then, there won't be very much to improvise on. But, that's not to say of course that because one knows their instrument very well that it will make them a very good improvisor. That too is a skill, some would say a gift to do it well. Like the vocal improvisations of Afro-Cuban singers in son.
" If you don't learn it, practice it, it won't come out of your drum." :lol:

And to view Jazz as simply improvised music is limited to say the least. Would you say that Son or GuaGuanco is simply improvised music? Improvisation is the integral part of what makes it such a gratifying and exciting music, but that is not all that is.The indentifying elements of what Makes a Jazz tune stand out have to be in the theme melody itself as inspiration for improvisation. As simple as it may seem, it is quite difficult to compose a peice of music that pulls a listner in and keeps them their until the end and if the improvisations aren't relating to the theme and it's rhythmic/ harmonic language, then it's just blabbering. I've heard Conga players that incorporate the melody of the tune into the melody of a son or Quaquanco for example with just the Quinto and Tumbador and conversely, I've heard plenty who just blast away all over place, on five drums for 6o bars without having communicated a single interesting frase or feeling. A lot of people talk about fusion in Jazz and that Jazz is a a mix of all kinds of music. That isn't true. Jazz, like Afro-Cuban music was created by Blending European Melody and Harmony and instruments with AfricanRhythm instruments to creat whole, new musical artforms. The uniting of Cuban music and american Jazz to create Latin Jazz was inevitable, because they are bothers concieved by and born to the same parents, in different cultural contexts, if you will. Everything after that are add ons to the basic blueprint. The fusion stuff, Oh well, who really listens to that music any more? With the exception of a few quality outfits, it was junk. Music created by the record industry to atract the Rock N Roll, excitement generation. And the so called Third Stream attempts by Gunther Schuller and his ilk. Borrrring! That's why Milt jackson and Kenny Clarke left the Modern Jazz Quartet...the Jazz elements were being eased out by Classical musical forms and elements to a frightening degree. Listen for example to the failed attempts at fusing Classical strings with Charlie Parkers drenched in blues Alto. Major flop! Charlie Parker was probably the best Alto saxophonist in the Jazz idiom that ever lived and he was, like all the other Jazz innovators, steeped in the Blues. All those styles you list are simply marketing slogans. The music is real or it isn't. :wink:

But, I stopped long ago to discuss, for lack of a better term, with people what Jazz is or rather what it isn't, because like a lot of things in this world, when it can't be grasped or appreciated by some in and or respected for what I and many, many others consider it to be authentically, then it's disregarded and or diluted to meet the needs of those who can't relate or accept it on it's integral, cultural and or ethnic terms. Similar, I think to how many Cubans felt when all the unique rythms and forms of Afro'Cuban music was lumped under the marketing slogan of Salsa.So be it. And if it brings you joy and possibly applause, I guess it doesn't matter what you call it.

Lastly, It's amazing how many people disregard the learning of simple rudiments,(scales or rhythms)on an instrument because they just want to play whatever they want, and call it Jazz or Son or Martillo or what have you. Then you have the other extreme of those who before they can play one tune on the horn, want to fully comprehend Jazz theory. :roll:

Peace,
Blavonski
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Mr. Blavonski
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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby Anonimo » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:30 pm

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby congamyk » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:21 pm

blavonski wrote:This is my last post on this Jazz topic. :D

Sure. :roll:

blavonski wrote:And to view Jazz as simply improvised music is limited to say the least.


If you're going to quote me, as though responding directly to me, try to at least quote me correctly.
congamyk wrote:The term "jazz" has come to be now be known as simply "improvised music" [b]and includes many styles stemming from the original style(s) founded in New Orleans.[/b]


You missed the entire last half of the quote. Most people understand there's a distinction between various improvised folk musics from around the world and jazz; the American musical art form birthed in New Orleans and further developed in Kansas City, Chicago, New York, Philly, LA, etc., and is still developing today.
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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby blavonski » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:29 pm

congamyk wrote:
blavonski wrote:This is my last post on this Jazz topic. :D

Sure. :roll:

blavonski wrote:And to view Jazz as simply improvised music is limited to say the least.


If you're going to quote me, as though responding directly to me, try to at least quote me correctly.
congamyk wrote:The term "jazz" has come to be now be known as simply "improvised music" [b]and includes many styles stemming from the original style(s) founded in New Orleans.[/b]


You missed the entire last half of the quote. Most people understand there's a distinction between various improvised folk musics from around the world and jazz; the American musical art form birthed in New Orleans and further developed in Kansas City, Chicago, New York, Philly, LA, etc., and is still developing today.


Congamyk,
I did quote you correctly, I simply refered to the first clause in your sentence. :wink:

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby bongosnotbombs » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:32 pm

blavonski wrote:very interesting discussion, and some very good points made by many, however I'm inclined to go with Leedy on his point about distintive musical idioms becomming generic, say nothing styles with out any real language of their own. Some one rejected the idea of there being rules to musical genres that maintain their authenticity; Yet shortly after that they said that the Tumbao was swinging in a Jazz Trio situation. Well if there were no prerequisite elements in, for example Jazz, then there would have been no need for you to swing to those tunes you played, you could just play whatever, right:?:


Peace,
Blavonski


I believe you are referring to my post, I said you don't have to play tumbao to play congas. I did say the tumbao was easy to swing, so it is often the default, but I can swing guaguanco equally well and often play that, even cruzao style sometimes. If the bass and other musicians are going to swing you need to swing with them. There are multiple examples of songs originally done as swing and played straight, and vice versa. The choice is up to the musicians.

Congas with jazz does not make it latin jazz, I play swing, bebop, straight and free jazz on congas, that doesn't sound Latin at all.
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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby Anonimo » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:07 pm

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby jorge » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:33 pm

leedy2 wrote:Yes Jazz can be latin or american Jazz but when you add a conga it becomes latin Jazz never has been nor it will be american Jazz

Your generalization is wrong. It is true sometimes but not all the time. Some jazz conga players don't even know how to play latin jazz or tumbao and you are now making them latin jazz artists automatically. Some play other styles of conga that have little or nothing to do with latin jazz.
If what you are saying were true, you would have to classify a lot of music that is nothing close to latin jazz by Miles Davis, Pharoah Sanders, Quartette Tres Bien (thanks JC), and many other jazz artists as latin jazz.
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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby Anonimo » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:43 pm

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby blavonski » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:14 am

jorge wrote:
leedy2 wrote:Yes Jazz can be latin or american Jazz but when you add a conga it becomes latin Jazz never has been nor it will be american Jazz

Your generalization is wrong. It is true sometimes but not all the time. Some jazz conga players don't even know how to play latin jazz or tumbao and you are now making them latin jazz artists automatically. Some play other styles of conga that have little or nothing to do with latin jazz.
If what you are saying were true, you would have to classify a lot of music that is nothing close to latin jazz by Miles Davis, Pharoah Sanders, Quartette Tres Bien (thanks JC), and many other jazz artists as latin jazz.


Ok Congamyk, your assumption was correct :roll:, I'm back on this threadmill, But it's Jorge's fault. :lol:

In a lopsided sort of way, gleaned from a purists perspective, and it has its place like all other's; I think what Jorge and what Leedy are meaning are quite the same idea in regards to Congas having no authentic place in staight ahead Jazz .

Jorge, above someplace, you asserted that the Conga has not and may never reach the technical playing heights in Jazz to replace the trap set in the music. And Leedy's general contention is that the Conga plays a supporting role when played in a Jazz context. And when he states that it becomes latin Jazz when a conga enters the Jazz picture, is possibly not so much that the music,( Autum Leaves for example), automatically becomes a Latin tune, but because, as you hint at, due to the conga, ike the Jazz trap drums, having been created in and for a specific musical form, it can't speak it's own language the way it was born to and has to adapt to a foreign language and in so doing, loses it's unique tongue. And in a way renders it uneccessary or superfluous. One doesn't take a trap drum set into ajazz or Salsa setting and play Rock N Roll rhythm's, moreover, when the drummer on a Jazz tune switches the accents from 2 & 4 to 1&3, then it becomes Funk. Many of the best Funk players have a strong jazz drumming foundation, but not all Funk drummers can play jazz with an swing feel, because many simply come directly from funk or rock music, but that's beside the point here.

So, with that in mind, maybe what leedy and yourself, inexplicitly, are saying is that, a conga shouldn't be in a Jazz setting unless it is speaking the musical language for which it was created and that, by consequence, will render it Latin Jazz. :?: Isn't that exactly how Latin jazz was born? Chano Pozo didn't attempt to adapt a bebop rhythmic concept to his congas when D.Gillespie braught him into the picture. It would be irrelevant, there was already a drum keeping and swinging the time. What made/makes it special, Latin Jazz was/is that blending of Latin rhythms and Jazz Phrasing and harmonies, and they both had a hell of a time deciding when and where 1 was in the tune. And so, yeah, of course any instrument can be used to play any type of music one wishes, much like one can choose to eat soup with a fork. But the experience is a totally different one.

More than any other element in music, I think, it is rhythm which defines its root quality and characteristic, (Genre, idiom or type), then there's Harmony and what are refered to as chord cadences,( and a cadence is another word for rhythm); Therefore, when we mix different distinct rhythms with other ones, we get a vague musical feeling, that maybe appealing to some, but not to others like myself. I hope that makes sense.

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Re: MAYUTO CORREA

Postby JohnnyConga » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:20 pm

here is an another old friend of mine from Florida Bobby Thomas jr.. Jazz Hand drummer...ol skool...

http://youtu.be/4htanpMxp-8
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