Segunda in Traditional Rumba

[niallgregory]

Just for the record i was not generalizing , just stating what i had seen on several occasions . I also witnessed as you said more organised bands with lots of interaction between both Drummer and Dancer . As with all things things in Cuban music the more you think you know the more before you arrive there , the more you realize its extremely fluid and constantly changing .

[ABAKUA]

Yep! I saw advancement and evolution in the 10 months since Id last been in Havana, its incredible, the old traditions are maintained and the forms also continue to evolve. Its beautiful.
As for the generalization bit of my post, I was reffering to the fact that there is that much rumba, drummers, dancers, crowd and overall rumba consumption that the dancer following the Quinto / Quinto following the dancer vs the Quintero just going for whatever they felt regardless of the dancer topic is difficult to answer. On any given corner, at any time of the day or night, there could be a rumba and the interaction between dancer and drummer varies from street corner to street corner.
I look forward to seeing what evolution there has been in the time leading to my return trip towards the end of the year or early next year.

[davidpenalosa]

Here is the telling of one North American drummer's impression of the quinto-dancer connection in 1962 Cuba:

Marcus Gordon, one of my early teachers told me a story about his trip to Cuba in 1962 to see the drumming and dancing he loved. “On a Sunday, my first day in Cuba, my friend drummer Richie Vélez and I were walking around Havana looking for drummers and came upon some playing comparsa on a corner. They befriended us and took us to a rumbón in a courtyard. When I listened to the quinto player, it was not interesting and it almost sounded out of time. Richie who was Puerto Rican and spoke Spanish suggested that I show them what I could do.” The Cubans agreed. Within minutes of sitting down to play, Marcus was surprised the Cubans pulled him off and put the old quintero who was playing quinto back on the drum. The incident was confusing. But then, after watching the dancers and listening to the quinto for a spell, he experienced an epiphany; the quintero’s gaze never left the dancer’s feet; every drum phrase corresponded to the male dancer’s improvised steps. Marcus said the connection between dancer and drummer was sublime.

Notice the cover of Alberto Zayas' Guaguancó afro-cubano, the quintero's eyes are firmly fixed on the dancer's feet:

I guess this thread has morphed.
-David

[ABAKUA]

Notice the cover of Alberto Zayas' Guaguancó afro-cubano, the quintero's eyes are firmly fixed on the dancer's feet:

Or the female dancers butt...

[bongosnotbombs]

Here in the Bay Area rmba is played without dancers more often than not. Yes there are some incredible dancers here, but there are not dancers at every rumba, and when there are dancers they do not necessarily dance every song.

However, I believe Thomas' post was about the segundo?

[jorge]

That album cover provides a nice segue back to discussion about tres dos styles. Listening to Macho Caleron's riffs and tres dos part, his playing is very reminiscent of that particular album of El Vive Bien (Roberto Maza) singing with Alberto Zayas' group with Giraldo Rodriguez on quinto (not as pictured on that cover). And yes, Abakua, the feet are not the only body parts the quinto can respond to but in polite company we would never do that. Ibiono...

Also, the quinto and tres dos are interacting with the singers too, not just the dancers. It is more about giving the singers space to be heard and "singing back" to them than directly marking their rhythms like with the dancers.

BNB, speaking of great dancers in the Bay area does Susana Arenas Pedroso still go to rumbas there?

[bongosnotbombs]

Also, the quinto and tres dos are interacting with the singers too, not just the dancers. It is more about giving the singers space to be heard and "singing back" to them than directly marking their rhythms like with the dancers.

Thank you for mentioning this Jorge, this is very important. This tends to influence local rumbas more than dancing, as there are always singers. In fact if you start crowding the singer, on quinot or any other drum, the singer is going to walk away and stop singing and you will find yourself without a drum very quickly.

[/quote]BNB, speaking of great dancers in the Bay area does Susana Arenas Pedroso still go to rumbas there?[/quote]

Not the open rumbas, in my experience, but she can be seen at rumba performances. Jose Francisco Barroso frequents the open rumbas from time to time. Always a pleasure to see him.

[KidCuba]

Thank you for mentioning this Jorge, this is very important. This tends to influence local rumbas more than dancing, as there are always singers. In fact if you start crowding the singer, on quinot or any other drum, the singer is going to walk away and stop singing and you will find yourself without a drum very quickly.

Even understanding for how the song and drum interact is diminishing, as at a recent rumba I was asked to sing. In return I asked them to lower the loudness of the drumming. The response from one drummer, "Nah, why don't you just bring an amp and microphone next time if you can't sing over us."

I respectfully nodded and did not sing. I now have a better understanding as to why rumbas can attract violence, I wanted to split that guys head open.

[bongosnotbombs]

In my opinion, if there is no singing, there is no rumba. It's just a glorified drum circle. If you play over the singers, it is the drummer that gets asked to leave. Saying that, singers should be able to project with drums playing at a normal volume, also the pitch of the voice should be able to cut through. I was reading an article posted by Barry where it mentions most rumba singers having a "sharp voice". I think that sharpness lets the singer cut through the sound and pitch of the drums.

Rumba however is a music and a community. If done right, there is space for everyone.

[Thomas Altmann]

On one of Barry's "Rumba in Atarés" clips, Amado Dedeu sits down at the salidor for one piece, and man, he is caressing that drum, hardly touching it, it seems; and yet, he provides all that is needed for the groove.

On the other hand, when I first heard those Cuban akpwones sing over a fully blowing batá ensemble - unamplified, of course - I simply couldn't believe it. Where did they get that volume from? What is really in a human body? It wasn't anything supernatural, for sure; but I could not imagine that it would be possible to produce such a tone at such a volume, such power. Here was one thing that I knew I would never be able to achieve in my life.

But then again, that's another style of singing that probably does not work in a Rumba.

Thomas

[KidCuba]

Saying that, singers should be able to project with drums playing at a normal volume, also the pitch of the voice should be able to cut through. I was reading an article posted by Barry where it mentions most rumba singers having a "sharp voice". I think that sharpness lets the singer cut through the sound and pitch of the drums.

Agreed. I don't have the strongest or highest pitch, but I am one of the few brave souls willing to sing when one of los mayores is not around and takes time to learn songs and coros. That being said, I can usually amplify over the drums, but I believe in general, a lot of novice players are too loud with their playing.

On the other hand, when I first heard those Cuban akpwones sing over a fully blowing batá ensemble - unamplified, of course - I simply couldn't believe it. Where did they get that volume from? What is really in a human body? It wasn't anything supernatural, for sure; but I could not imagine that it would be possible to produce such a tone at such a volume, such power. Here was one thing that I knew I would never be able to achieve in my life.

Thomas, I experienced that recently during a workshop with Cusito from Rumberos de Cuba. He started singing a bembe with that loud, high pitched voice akpwones use and it was incredible. I really did seem out of this Earth and gave me chills.

[pcastag]

Love the sound of those mopercs. Those guys really make them sing!
PC

[jorge]

Love the sound of those mopercs. Those guys really make them sing!
PC

Those guys can make any drum sing. Mopercs, LPs, LP Aspires, whatever. A couple of the LP drums they used on tour in NYC really sounded pretty bad when some other drummers sat down and played them. Deyvis, Agustin, Freddy and Luisito made all of them sound great, including some LP Aspires with thin water buffalo skins at one of the NYC rumbas when they were in town. 50% brain, 10% hands, 10% condition of drum, 10% skin, 10% room acoustics, 10% brand of drum.

[pavloconga]

Those guys can make any drum sing. Mopercs, LPs, LP Aspires, whatever. A couple of the LP drums they used on tour in NYC really sounded pretty bad when some other drummers sat down and played them. Deyvis, Agustin, Freddy and Luisito made all of them sound great, including some LP Aspires with thin water buffalo skins at one of the NYC rumbas when they were in town. 50% brain, 10% hands, 10% condition of drum, 10% skin, 10% room acoustics, 10% brand of drum.

I totally agree. Just last year I met Pepé Espinosa on his Australian tour with the Afro-Cuban All Stars. A friend here (who was the band's minder while they were here) loaned Pepé 3 of his own congas (LP Accent model, very basic, with different skins, but not much better than LP Aspires really). The night I listened to Pepé play in concert with the All Stars he really made those drums sing. If I didn't know any better I could've sworn it was Anga playing, such was the incredible sound he managed to coax from those drums.

[ABAKUA]

of course Dr Zaragemca would disagree.. Ancestors n all....