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Hi everybody,

it seems that my biggest void, or lack of experience and practice, refers to the middle drum of batá (itótele) as well as Rumba (segunda, tres-dos, tres golpes, or golpe /seis-por-ocho), particularly Guaguancó. I feel even more familiar with the quinto or the iyá, and I have an affinity to okónkolo or tumbadora/salidor. While I have an idea of the itótele role, I am not so sure about the Guaguancó segunda.

1.) How would you describe the concept of segunda playing, and what do you look for in a segundero? Which is the right attitude of an ideal segunda player, and what do you do to achieve it?

2.) What about adding floreos, embellishments and variations? Are you constantly ready and willing to respond to conversations? Are you even initiating conversations? Or are conversations generally more an affair between the tumbador and the quintero?

3.) Do you tend to "ghost" the finger strokes or chapeo to leave more room and freedom for the quinto player? Or is the skeleton provided by the finger strokes rather helpful, for instance to outline the groove? Does an articulate fingerwork interfere with the quinteo or not?

Greetings,

Thomas

Thomas, while not as experienced as some here, I have spent quite a bit of time on the segundo. It is actually my favorite role in guaguanco. I play exclusively Matanzas style on the segundo in the manner as taught to me by Sandy Perez of Grupo Afrocuba de Matanzas.

1) For me the concept of playing segundo lies in how the drum responds to the tumba. More than anything else I listen to the call from the low drum and try to place my responding note with the right amount of swing to create a feel of tension and interplay between the two drums. I listen for it more than the clave or anything else.

2) Before the rhtyhm breaks into the montuno I play this part part very straight, but I vary in my straightness. The part I play has a single primary note on the 3, however an additional note can be added before the 3 or right after without really varying the rhythm. Or I might include a note just before the 4 similar to Havana style guaguanco.

Once the song breaks, it depends on whom I am playing with, if the low drum plays very freely I do as well, taking turns initiating or responding to each other, sometimes every clave cycle. If the low drum is more reserved I play that way as well. Locally my experience is the conversations are primarily between the segundo and tumba in guaguanco.

3) In the Matanzas style I play it is all a swung chapeo with only a single ghost note after the open tone on the 3, no slaps at all in the basic part. I've observed the Havana part to be different.

You might find this older post on Matanzas style guaguanco segundo interesting, especially the informative posts from jorge.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5643&hilit=chapeo

Like BnB, my favorite role is in that middle spot.
I base most of my opinions on what the coolest sounding rumba is, on what I've seen in Humboldt when Gallaraga is leading on vocals, Sandy Perez is on quinto, Roman Diaz is on Tumba, and Jesus Diaz in the middle. Absolutely awesome.

What I've seen from these guys shows me what is possible when everyone's ears are so huge that they can hear the grass being blown next them, and maybe that isn't too much of an exaggeration. Both the Tumba and Tres Dos will play EXTREMELY sparsely for some length of time.. They may leave out entire sections of their part so that clave becomes the biggest sound. Then come back in to a part of their part - not the whole thing. The quinto may be ripping, or it might also be really thin.. And it could be any one of them who then initiates a long roll, or amazing quinto-like rhythm that flows into their part,, then a response from one of them, and then the other.. It goes like this for hours through the evening.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that when you are one of the world's best, then every instrument is potentially a lead, but every instrument is also a support part.
One of my main lessons to get from them is that they play ghost notes and touches almost silently. Especially on Segundo. I love playing it this way. I've found that the Segundo becomes a real time-clock for the rhythm when you've pealed away everything but your tone. You become more prominent, and people hear you more when you're bare-bones. Then, when you play a flourish, it's so much more interesting. I think it's obvious that most people play the part with responses to tumba, but in my humble opinion, I don't really think it has to be that way. It's more like bata if you respond to the tumba, but again, I don't think it has to be that way.

1.) How would you describe the concept of segunda playing, and what do you look for in a segundero? Which is the right attitude of an ideal segunda player, and what do you do to achieve it?

I look to the earliest recordings of guaguanco (1942-1956) for my concept of the segundo's function. Most of those recordings have only two drums (or two cajones). When the segundo was used though, it was sounded on the three-side about as much as it was on the two-side. I mention this because the onbeat variations of the segundo make sense when the tone(s) is sounded on the three-side. I think that is the original logic of those variations. Now, because the segundo's tone is sounded on the two-side, the variations are counter-clave.

For a more modern-style segundo, I look to the first recordings by Los Munequitos (Guaguanco Matancero) from 1956-1958. The segundo is the anchor; it plays on the beat. The basic tone of the salidor (tumba) on the other hand, is an offbeat, and its variations tend to consist of offbeats.

2.) What about adding floreos, embellishments and variations? Are you constantly ready and willing to respond to conversations? Are you even initiating conversations? Or are conversations generally more an affair between the tumbador and the quintero?

The variations should be on the beat, and not sound offbeats unless they are sounded with onbeats (consecutive strokes). Below I have two sheets from a class I did at HSU about ten years ago. Notice that all of the variations have an onbeat feel. Please excuse the common time signature. It should be cut-time (four main beats per clave). I'm being lazy here and using these hand outs instead of generating new examples.




In Munequitos recordings 1956-1980s, the segundo is the least likely to vary. It is the anchor, and "coincidently," it is also serves the role of playing on the beat.

Here is a conversation where the salidor responds to the quinto crossing, by playing offbeats and crossbeats. At the conclusion of this quinto-tumba conversation, the segundo joins in with several tones after its fundamental tone. That makes for a cool three-drum conversation, but I have witnessed many North Americans falling into the trap of always responding to the salidor. There are many things to respond to: the dancer, the gallo, the quinto, the other supportive drum. My rule is don't always respond to the same thing and don't always sound every idea that comes into my head. I recently saw a video of the young players in Los Munequitos and they seemed to be carrying on a private conversation between the salidor and the segundo. That made me sad. It used to not be like that.

3.) Do you tend to "ghost" the finger strokes or chapeo to leave more room and freedom for the quinto player? Or is the skeleton provided by the finger strokes rather helpful, for instance to outline the groove? Does an articulate fingerwork interfere with the quinteo or not?

I don't see a problem unless you use slaps.-David

Hi Thomas. In modern Habana style tres dos how you play depends a lot on how the tumbador is playing and how well you know each other musically. If the tumbador is talking a lot and you don't know each other's styles you may want to play very straight and just play the downbeat on 3 plus your personal timing. If you have played together a lot you may be able to talk more without clashing. I mainly play tres dos locked in to the clave, but I listen to the tumbador and the quinto and the singer at the same time. Some tumbadores and quinto players don't like any variations in the tres dos, they want to do all the talking. If they can play great tumbador or quinto, I just play tres dos like they want it. Some like to talk back and forth a lot. That is fun, but just don't drown out the quinto or the singer. You can carry the bombo on tres dos or let the tumbador do it (jicamo or cajon), or trade back and forth. Listen to great tres dos players like Maximino, Pedrito Martinez and El Chori. Matanzas style golpe, Pablo Mesa invented it with Conj Guaguanco Matancero, right now Agustin is the man but before him, Jesus was great too before he took over as quinto. The tumbador is key and not many people can swing the Matanzas style tumbador just right.

I have struggled most with the Habana segundo during my years of study, but after dedicating some serious time to practicing it this year - I have made some progress.

In my playing, I try to play it pretty straight with tones on the 3 and the 1/8e the fifth note of clave.

Initially I played a pattern with lots of slaps, but over time I have thinned out the pattern to emphasize the bombo (2nd note of clave) and open tones.

I don't stray too much when playing, as not to throw off the entire ensemble, but have toyed with delaying the open tones back to the 1/8th following the fourth and fifth notes of clave.

Still lots of work to come for me....

Hi congueros,
Here is an example of beautiful guaguanco tres dos playing recorded in my visit to Cuba.

It was an impromptu recording at the house of the great rumbero Mario 'Chavalonga' Dreke (Rest in Peace) in the barrio of Ataré. One morning I was having a lesson with Sandalio 'Macho' Calderon, when another great rumbero of Havana, Pedro Fariña walked in. A few other people from the neighbourhood wandered in and before long a rumba started.

Pedro Fariña (vocals and clavé),
Mario 'Chavalonga' Dreke (backing vocals)
Sandalio 'Macho' Calderon (tres dos),
Yanixa Calderon (backing vocals)
I'm on tumbador (playing it straight and not wanting to screw up! )
Plus other people from the barrio on backing vocals.

Have a listen to the track. It gets started properly after about 20 seconds when Fariña joins in.

http://soundcloud.com/pavloconga/macho- ... -guaguanco

I would be interested to hear your comments on Macho's approach to the tres dos in this situation.
Notice that Macho in this situation plays all the in between notes of the tres dos clearly and strongly, (which when played by a master like him sounds beautiful).
I was always very impressed (an understatement) by his phrasing, his attack, his deep knowledge of the entire genre as well as his impeccable sense of timing. 

-Pavlo

I want to thank everybody for your input and involvement, and the time you took to give me your personal advice. As far as I am concerned, I feel I gained a nice overall picture of the issues in question. The rest is up to me; listening to recordings, to the sound and the pitch of the drums, and practicing.

I have the impression that the two (formerly) separate styles of percussion - Havana and Matanzas - are approaching each other to blend into a combined or hybrid concept: While some Matanceros are thinning out their typical chapeo, Habaneros start to embrace the "un solo golpe" pattern.

In general, would you agree that the segundo basic hand pattern as we have learned it, is susceptible to all possible variations according to the individual drummer's personal style and preference? - At least, as long as the groove is there and the main golpes remain secure.

I find this was once again a great example of how a forum like this can ideally work. And I think I was not the only one who walks away with a lesson.

Thanks again,

Thomas

P.S.: BNB, of course I had checked the forum history (and the other thread) before.
@ pavloconga: This is a very special situation, a rumba without quinto! I suppose that usually, if you have only two drums at a rumba, the segundo part is the first one to skip. I figure out that Macho embellishes more to make up for the missing solo drum.

I'm sure most of you have by now seen this one:
http://youtu.be/TJ-5HUyn19k
This is the Matanzas style with flare. Maybe too much,, but he's obviously the leader here and the one calling the shots.

@ pavloconga: This is a very special situation, a rumba without quinto! I suppose that usually, if you have only two drums at a rumba, the segundo part is the first one to skip. I figure out that Macho embellishes more to make up for the missing solo drum.

Yes, it was a rumba without a quinto! It was a completely spontaneous happening and I think someone that day had borrowed the quinto from Chava's place. But notice how Macho ingeniously inserts a quinto like feel or plays slaps that cut through in the perfect spot. Overall the music still sounded amazing without quinto.

That kind of thing happened a lot in that neighbourhood. I have many more recordings.

Definitely some quinto phrasing inserted into the segundo part. Cool. The two parts typically sound opposite sides of the clave, so it is a natural hybrid.
-David

Pavlo,

Thanks for the SHARE! I hope you share more from your library!

Thanks for this thread Thomas... very interesting.

I like how you initially posted regarding "traditional" rumba, but then opened your arms to so much feedback on more progressive forms. tradition is such a subjective concept - great feedback from everyone here.

My initial thought was mainly about the conversation between the tumba and segundo, it's nice to hear these ideas echoed by others. Slowly but surely I learn the language.

RR

@ David:

Definitely some quinto phrasing inserted into the segundo part. Cool. The two parts typically sound opposite sides of the clave, so it is a natural hybrid.
-David

With all due respect, but even I am doing that constantly - when I play a 2- or 3-conga set in a band context. I even play the same figures. And I don't believe I'm the only one. I got it mainly from listening to Irakere's Jorge Alfonso.

Also, thinking in fixed territories for each drum part is one of those transitional entry concepts that make perfect sense in a teaching situation, but must be modified in "real" performance. Even your own transcriptions show that both salidor and segundo can play anywhere (as long as it makes sense, musically). And we all know that the quinto may be all over the place.

This might rather be a thread on its own; but I feel that the so-called standard "quinto ride" should not be seen as binding, either. It may come in handy as a default "waiting pattern", or as a starting motif for any percussion solo. But it can also tie you up, or always launch you in the same direction; that's what I have experienced myself, repeatedly. I have often watched Barry's "Rumba in Atarés" videos on YouTube lately, and seeing Mario play the quinto was a revelation to me - and a liberation. (Is this still the same Mario Jáuregui who has studied with Pablo Roche? Does this guy never get old?) I remember I played with that concept before learning about a quinto ride (but not as well as Mario, of course). I suspect that the quinto ride has been a product of musical analysis, finding its principal application in the teaching circuit, but falling flat in real life. I may be exaggerating here. But I definitely think that we have to open up the categories a bit.

@ RR: "Open categories" applies to "traditional" vs "modern" as well. As you said, it's subjective; but it is relative, too.

I am a confessing traditionalist. Now, the general image of a traditionalist is one of some stubborn, backward zombie who feeds on the dead and dusty remnants of the past. But that's not traditionalism; that might be described as artistic necrophily, an immature or undeveloped stage of creativity. For me, traditionalism implies evolution, because if there was ever one thing that is truly traditional, then it's the strife to move forward and to shape one's art after one's own ideas. The only thing about traditionalism is that you know where you come from in order to know where you are going to. This would be my definition of a traditionalist.

One and the same musician may play differently from year to year, even from day to day. When we listen to the "Rapsodía Rumbera" record, we hear some of the same old warhorses who have played the Rumba since it was recorded for the first time; yet it sounds so modern! A young hothead might automatically hold back a bit when congregating with elder drummers, and if he's musical, it goes together perfectly.

On a less relevant level: If I consciously chose to play less on the segundo today, then I would probably do so because I like it better, not because everything must be like it was yesterday. Then it would automatically be the most "modern", or contemporary thing you could possibly hear, because I play it now, and I play it live, and I know why. I don't like the conversational battlefields that we can see in modern talk shows, where everybody interrupts anyone else; there is no discussion culture! By the same token, if I am the quintero, and I hear a constant chatter from the other drums that keeps me from pursuing my own flow of ideas, I'd rather get up and have a beer until the guys shut up. Let the people dance to that!

Thomas

windhorse wrote:I'm sure most of you have by now seen this one:
http://youtu.be/TJ-5HUyn19k
This is the Matanzas style with flare. Maybe too much,, but he's obviously the leader here and the one calling the shots.

That's Luisito form the Munequitos. He stayed with Sandy Perez during, and for a while after their tour last summer. Sandy took time out at his regular Saturday classes and handed over to Luisito.

He kept it very straight and traditional. A great no nonsense teacher that paid a lot of emphasis on us producing clean and clear notes.