Confused by guarapachangeo...

[Assaf]

...I'm sure I'm not the only one

OK, a long post, for those who have the time and patience.
Many thanks in advance if you find the time to see if you can answer me.

I was taught by a number of teachers (including by friend who studied with Los Chinitos) to position guarapachangeo with clave the way panga does here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPVbENbe ... re=related

Specifically I am referring to the following elements:
1) 2 tones or muffs that coincide with the first and second strike of the 3/2 clave (as Panga does on the tumba)
2) A roll of 4 bases that completes in the middle of the 3/2 clave (ie at the start of the 2 side of the clave). Or sometimes one might play just the last of the 4 bases.
3) also sometimes playing 2 higher tones soon after the last of the 4 bases; it's hard to describe where these fall, but you can see Panga playing them on the quinto in the above link.

It so happens that Panga is playing all 3 elements, but I know that not all 3 need always be played.

My question regards how to play the pattern next to clave.
I was taught to line the pattern up with clave as I have described and as Panga does.

But I just watched this lovely video of Los Chinitos, the creators, and they seem to sometimes do it like Panga and sometimes on the opposite side of clave!!
Hence the confusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8n3GRB1 ... ure=relmfu

For example:
Listen to how the speaker (Piri) sings the basic tumba part at 11:30 and how it is demonstrated by Pedro at 4:45 (they definitely seem to demonstrate it on the opposite side of clave to Panga).
But then listen to how his father demonstrates the tumba part at 12:13 and later at 13:45. Here he seems to play it like Panga!
But not always!! See 17:15 where he again plays it opposite to Panga.
It's difficult to tell what exactly he is playing as what he's doing is quite complicated and he actually rarely plays that basic phrase; he seems to mostly use a different more sophisticated phrase.

And here's a lesson with Piri where he absolutely plays it the whole way NOT like Panga.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC1nvERm ... ure=relmfu

So, does anyone out there know what's going on here?
Is it like Piri?
Like Panga?
or can you switch to either side of the clave such that the bases complete sometimes where I described above and other times at the start of the 3/2 clave? (ie on the first stroke of the 3 side of the clave).

Anyone able to share some light on this?

as I said, thanks for taking the time to read this and watch the videos.
Assaf

[Assaf]

No takers on this one?


Ah well. I guess it was a bit of a geeky and detailed post.

[mario principato]

hello


for today is interpreted as the voltage of clave, the best way to play this is based on the proportion of 2 of clave...as Irian plays like in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuc_ihD6_zo

to understand how to interpret the chinitos Guarapachangueo is not at all easy, it takes a long listen, study and a trip to korea!!

[windhorse]

...I'm sure I'm not the only one

Yes, I know...
I'll never forget being told point blank - cold and hard - that those four bases rolled into the one of 3-2 clave many years ago at the Humboldt gathering by someone I respected a great deal. I couldn't believe it, and kept asking him to make sure he understood what I was saying about clave. That was the first sign of confusion for me, because up to that time, everything I was taught about that rhythm was from someone who had studied with the Munequitos. It was also varified by the few recordings of Guarapachangueo by the Munequitos, and the Chinitos had not yet put out any of their videos on the basics and beginnings of their versions.
Maybe this is analogous to the history of guaguanco; you know, where the tres dos was first played on the one of clave, then was later moved to the three of clave. I don't know..
Good luck with that.
I guess, in the end, you make a musical choice. What do you like to hear the most? For me, it's Vale Todo on the Vacunao album. And that one has the four basses rolling into the 3 of clave.
One of the most difficult things I have been working on for a few years now is getting that first bass hit, in the sequence of four, to be a prominent bass rather than a softer touch. Very difficult.

[Assaf]

Thanks bud
Good, at least, to hear I'm not alone.

I'm not familiar with that album and track you mentioned. I'll have to check it out. I think I saw it mentioned on another guarapachangeo discussion on this forum.

But let me understand, they play 4 bases with the 4th base coinciding with the 3rd stroke of 3/2 rumba clave? Ok, I'll give that a go and see how it sounds. And I guess that means the first base falls on the beat of tempo immediately after the second stroke of the clave?
Am I 'feelin you'?

[windhorse]

Thanks bud
Good, at least, to hear I'm not alone.

I'm not familiar with that album and track you mentioned. I'll have to check it out.
I think I saw it mentioned on another guarapachangeo discussion on this forum.

But let me understand, they play 4 bases with the 4th base coinciding with the 3rd stroke of 3/2 rumba clave? Ok, I'll give that a go and see how it sounds. And I guess that means the first base coincides with the second stroke of the clave? Am I 'feelin you'?

NO!!! the (big 3) When you count 1-4 with clave played inside that measure of 4.
You had it right in your original post!

[Assaf]

Ok, got you.
Thanks

[Derbeno]

Ok, I am following the discussion with interest and thought it cleared a few things up for me only to remember this version by Jesus Diaz.

He opens with 3 muffs and a base on the Tumbadora. Michael Spiro opens with two muff and an open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSqwiaT2K9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_5kTpy ... ure=relmfu

Perhaps it's a matter of you say Tohmatoh he says Tomaetoe.

btw Micheal is an absolutely phenomenal player but he is not swinging it like Jesus can.

[Assaf]

Hi Derbo

They're both playing the same thing. You're asking a question about a specific detail that is not crucial. What's important is that they are both playing the same rythmical concept, just that the actual choice of stroke is slightly different between them. The both play 3 dominant strokes that coincide with where son clave would fall, and then another stroke at the 'big 3' (as windhorse calls it).

This is an important point, that the rythmical concept is the same/similar while the choice of actual stroke varies. This is part (a part!) of what makes all the different rumbas a family of rythms even though different groups/cities play them differently. For example, if you take the salidor and tresdos of traditional Havana and compare with the traditional munequitos, you might think they are quite different, and you might get hung up on the big difference being the single tone that the munequitos play on the tresdos. But in fact the rythm that results from playing both drums together ends up sounding very similar. It's just that some of the strokes have changed or even moved between the drums. For example, take the base tone played on the havana tresdos coincident with the 2nd stroke of the 3:2 clave. In the munequitos rythm it has been moved to the salidor. In the traditional havana salidor there is no base tone at that point. And take that second tresdos tone that the munequitos omit. Well instead they play a strong base tone. The result is certainly different, but also the same.

Things like this occur all the time within these rythms, as a result of the rythms moving around geographically and though time. If you spot that the concept is the same but the choice of stroke is slightly different or it's located to a different drum, then you can relax and understand that the same thing is actually being played. What you need to be listening for is the rythmical concept and the relationship between all the instruments. This is what makes them all the same, and its when these elements are changed that people start to exclaim that you're no longer playing rumba! - which is what originally happened with guarapachangeo (and also I think with Timba and Salsa too).

Now the clave, pallitos and chekere are also part of this story. They are the backbone of the rythm, and although most of us players take more interest in the drums, it is the small percussion that is most important in rumba. And for that reason they do not vary much between groups and over time. These small instruments remain more or less constant. The drums are less significant with regards to defining the rumba sound, and so they have the freedom to vary between groups and over time, but not so with the small percussion.

This, at least, is my understanding.
It would be great to hear people's thoughts on this.

[windhorse]

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10287309/guaracajon.mov

Okay, this is me playing the bajo in the style taught to me by Miguel Bernal, though of course he is a million times better than I. (This really is just demonstration for how he sits on the cajon, with corner facing forward)
You can hear Ritz switching up where his basses first roll into the (big 3) along with mine.. But later he rolls a bunch of muff tones into the (big 1). That's because he's been learning from those Chinitos' recordings. He's got that style down really nice, so now he plays them on both sides, which I think is really cool. But, this is a segment of a much longer one where he really goes off on it and it's clearly too much. So IMO, you have stay tasty with switching where the cascading four strokes go.
We also have a few guys that put some of that in when playing tumba on guaguanco, which again if played sparingly sounds really cool.

[davidpenalosa]

Just for fun, here is a guarapachangeo in a ambient music setting.

http://soundcloud.com/jmsmuzik/alma

[jorge]

Nice quinto. Who are the drummers?

[davidpenalosa]

I think it might be just one guy overdubbing himself. The Soundcloud page just identifies him as "Jmsmuzik" from Hawaii. He's a young looking guy:

There are several soundfiles available for listening. Overall, there are too many synthetic sounds for my taste, but I like some of the textures. I think I like the one that uses guatapachangeo best.
-David

http://soundcloud.com/jmsmuzik

[JohnnyConga]

His name is Jesse Seymour he is on FB...

[ABAKUA]

I was taught by a number of teachers (including by friend who studied with Los Chinitos) to position guarapachangeo with clave the way panga does here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPVbENbe ... re=related

Yep, exactly how I was playing it in Havana and there was never any questioning to it.

Also seperated into rumba style ensemble like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVQB1FFrigY

The guys I was hanging with played it in this way with relation to the open beats etc with the clave.

I feel it sits correctly and more comfortable this way also. As for the other ways, I cant really comment. Not saying its wrong, just that I dont endorse it nor teach it that way.