Clave timing ear training 102

[jorge]

Listen to this clip and see if you can hear how the clave is wavering in its timing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch2qtGr1 ... re=related
This is a typical Cuban rumba de cajon. El Gato is one of the singers with Rumberos de Cuba and plays clave on most of their songs. You can see he is not happy with most of the different people playing clave in this rumba, and tries out a lot of different people. It almost turns into an audition. Nobody really gets it as solid and tight as it should be. Close but no cigar. This is a good example of how important the clave is and also that playing clave well is not a genetic trait. Also, holding clave really steady is more difficult without a guagua. The second clave on the downbeat did help quite a bit. Otherwise, nice rumba de cajones, they know how to play with dynamics so you can hear the singers and drums clearly without too loud an echo in the room.

[jorge]

One other thing, if you can't hear the timing of the clave wavering try playing a guagua pattern along with the song. Even assuming that you have really steady timing yourself, you will find that you can't completely extinguish the clave every measure as you could if the clave timing were solid.

[Derbeno]

One other thing, if you can't hear the timing of the clave wavering try playing a guagua pattern along with the song. Even assuming that you have really steady timing yourself, you will find that you can't completely extinguish the clave every measure as you could if the clave timing were solid.

Great advice and observation....I will try that and pay particular attention to that in future when playing.

[JohnnyConga]

Just to add..being Cuban also doesn't mean you can play Rumba Clave or understand it
...I have known many that can't dance Casino/Salsa/Rumba or play Clave...black and white Cubans....I don't hear anybody in the video NOT playing Rumba Clave properly.. but I see that they lack that "Rumba enthusiasm" that comes easy to some and harder for others..so they kinda sound 'behind' the drummers, as Gato looks for the right "Clavero"...

[jorge]

...I don't hear anybody in the video NOT playing Rumba Clave properly.. but I see that they lack that "Rumba enthusiasm" that comes easy to some and harder for others..so they kinda sound 'behind' the drummers, as Gato looks for the right "Clavero"...

MOST of the players in the video are not playing rumba clave properly and I am pretty sure they are all Cuban. Gato was trying to sing at the beginning but had to stop to first find someone who could play clave right.
JC, what I am calling "timing" you are calling "rumba enthusiasm". Nobody crossed the clave, or played a completely wrong pattern (Clave 101), but all of them in the beginning are playing clave with such sloppy timing that Gato is trying to find someone who can play it better. They are not consistently behind or ahead of the drummers, they are wavering in their timing, sometimes ahead, sometimes behind, which keeps the rhythm from feeling right. Toward the end, someone is playing a little better, against a downbeat clave, and the song starts to gel a little better. The point is that we should develop our timing and ears so we can instantly hear when the clave is not quite right, and fix it. The right "feeling" can't happen and be sustained without precision of timing, and that precise timing is fundamental to the rumba. In the Central Park rumba they used to call that "arrogancia cubana" but it is really about getting the sound right (well maybe plus just a little bit of ego issues...).

[burke]

OK - since this a clave 102 observation I'll add my 101 observations/questions.

First - I'm not sure how anyone could hope to play straight with a big stogie in their yap and smoke pouring into their eyes

Second - if the clave is the key, the foundation, and all are supposed to work with and around it ... and the drummers never stop playing then who is keying off who? Unless all the drummers in the room were already in perfect clave ... which begs the question why do they need a clave player?

So it makes me wonder as a novice watching this - how anyone could play start to play perfect clave in room full of drums already playing ... and looking frankly like they weren't listening.

Cheers

Darrell

[jorge]

First, you usually can't tell how well someone can play or how carefully they are listening by looking at them.
Second, the clave and the singer are the primary parts of the rumba, the drums are secondary. It is not hard to play the drum or cajon parts even with a bad clave player, it just doesn't sound right. When the clave is not exactly where you would expect it, the singer has trouble singing in time, the whole rhythm doesn't fit together right and doesn't "feel" right, and the song does not really pick up the energy it needs. Once the clave is fixed, things sound better, everyone relaxes and the rumba takes off. Se formo la rumba.

[guarachon63]

Jorge wrote:

Gato was trying to sing at the beginning but had to stop to first find someone who could play clave right.

Hi Jorge, timing issues aside, I just have to interject that I believe your interpretation here is not quite accurate.

The way I see it is that the video starts as Gato is finishing up the last half of a décima, that usually starts:

SIempre tengo por costumbre
cuando llego a una morada
saludar a la muchedumbre
como persona educada...

Then the video starts and you can hear some guys in the crowd singing the "a, na na na..." that they sometimes do between décima verses). Then Gato sings,

"...Salud público presente,
salud querido auditorio
hoy invito a los presentes
a escuchar mi repertorio"

Then he goes "Habla..." and makes a hand gesture to the guy in the green shirt, letting him know he's finished singing and now it's the next guys turn.

It also looks to me like besides any timing issues, they are not happy with the tone of the claves themselves, they sound kind of soft, like pine or something. The guy with the stogie plays them for a bit and then kind of looks back and starts signaling for someone to bring out the other pair, and then things get a bit better.

Another thing to note is that despite all that going on, they just keep rolling and having a good time, nada de guapería, nobody gets pissed off or agressive, or stopping the rumba to start it all over again "right." I imagine that if Gato felt there were any truly serious timing issues he would have just taken the claves and started playing them himself. I also don't see any lack of enthusiasm there, everybody seems to be enjoying themselves.

That said, timing is important, I know I need to work on it more than anybody.

[Derbeno]

This one appears to be earlier in the day as there is still daylight outside the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss6-34Kspc0&feature=plcp

The same lad that was playing the clave in the video of the first post is playing the campana with no issues. Gato starts playing the downbeat with the lighter colored claves then he plays the Clave itself. The way he looked down on them, I can see the point that he is no too impressed with the sound

[jorge]

Guarachon, I agree they keep on going without the kind of guaperia, anger, yelling and other drama we tend to have in NYC rumbas. I don't agree however that the main focus is on the sound of the claves rather than the sloppiness of the clave playing. Clearly, Gato is clapping the downbeat trying to get the guy in the beginning to play in time, and when it doesn't happen, the guy with the cigar takes the claves. Believe me, I know firsthand, I have gotten that "look" many times in the past 40 years. After that it not quite as clear what is going on, but it still looks to me like the familiar scene of trying to find someone who can play the part correctly. In the earlier video (thanks Derbeno for posting that) Gato is playing that same light wood set of claves with no problem, and once they get 2 sets of claves, they continue to play that pair, so I don't think the problem is mainly the sound of the instrument. If the clave playing wasn't a little off, the attention would have quickly shifted away from the claves to the song again. Once there are 2 people playing, it sounds better, and when the coro starts, the rumba picks up and gets better still, and . Armonia, compas, mesura y cadencia is 3/4 about the rhythm.
Derbeno, those are 2 different guys, one playing guataca at 1:44 in the video you posted, and another playing clave in the beginning of the video I posted.

[guarachon63]

I don't agree however that the main focus is on the sound of the claves rather than the sloppiness of the clave playing.

Hi Jorge, note I didn't say it was the MAIN focus, I said "besides" timing issues...

Anyway the main point of my post was to point out that El Gato did not have to stop singing in order to find somebody to play clave right, he clearly sang his bit and then passed it on to the next guy, who passed it on to several more guys none of whom seemed to be bothered by the time. The timing may be off but that's not why Gato stopped singing, so to me it doesn't support your argument.

[jorge]

I couldn't hear his words very well on that video clip so you have more insight as to where he was in the song and why he passed on the lead singing role at that particular point. Even so, he spent a lot of time and effort getting the clave fixed rather than singing coro, singing more lead, or otherwise enjoying the rumba like he usually does.

[guarachon63]

OK good, the gods of rumba can rest easy now knowing that's settled! LOL

[jorge]

Yeah, the earth stopped rumbling a couple hours ago, peace descended on my house and the sun started shining, now I know why. Well maybe it had something to do with the gardening crew next door finishing up with their leaf blowers.

Back to our regularly scheduled program, continuing the thread on clave timing and ear training. The best way I have found to learn to play clave in time is to play with a really good guagua player or recordings of Cuban rumba groups, and try to play clave so it is perfectly in time with the guagua. Listen to the tres dos and tumba but lock in to the guagua. Lazaro Rizo is my favorite guagua player, you can't go wrong with any recording with him on guagua (Tata Guines Aniversario, Rapsodia Rumbera, Pancho Quinto, Rumberos de Cuba). There are lots of others and I like the classics (Papines, Muñequitos, Yoruba Andabo, Clave y Guaguanco) for practicing clave and guagua.

Until you get your clave playing solid and consistent at home, when you play out with others just clap along while someone else plays clave. The clave part is contained completely within the guagua part, so playing one over the other should completely "extinguish" the other one if the timing is right. Practice soft, playing too loud keeps you from hearing and correcting your slight timing errors. Perfect rhythmic harmony is the goal. Also important is to limit the time you spend playing with players whose timing is even a little bit off, you can pick up bad habits and sloppy timing.

The biggest mistake people make is to assume that you can just show up at a rumba and play clave without practicing it at home in between rumbas. Clave is just like any other instrument, you have to spend some quality time practicing it with records or a metronome, until you get it good enough to play with others, and then play it regularly to maintain your timing. Playing guagua helps your clave and vice versa. You need to play against something else with perfect timing, not just by itself. At rumbas, play clave, play guagua, don't just go straight for a drum. It's not just about paying dues, playing clave and guagua help build your timing. After over 40 years playing rumba I still practice clave at home sometimes when I don't get a chance to go to good rumbas regularly.

[guarachon63]

I remember talking about playing clave once with Goyo, he told me that when he left Conjunto Folklorico Nacional he found he could no longer hold clave and sing at the same time, after 20 years of only singing and dancing in the group. So he told me he just practiced around the house until he got it back. So it's definitely not innate.

Good comment about not playing too loud too, though it will probably fall on deaf ears.