jorge wrote:Quinto Governor II wrote:My simple mind says to me why can't charts be written in clave if it is such an exact musical reality? If phrases are started and ended within 2 bars are they naturally in clave?
All good Cuban timba charts are written in clave. Many classically or other professional conservatory-trained musicians (horns, percussion, piano, bass,etc) can play them. Very few of those conservatory-trained musicians, other than the Cubans (raised in Cuba), can IMPROVISE in clave, even if they can play a complex chart in clave. Simply being 2 bars long does not mean a phrase is in clave. The accents, spaces and feel of the instrument have to fit with all the other instruments and vocals that are all in clave too.RhythmRhyme wrote:A funny thing for me is that when I went to train with a classically trained cuban timbale player, a guy who had been formally trained in music schools in cuba and really could play any percussion instrument well, one of the first things he talked about was "fix".
Who was that? Was he born and raised in Cuba? Of course this is only my experience but I never met a Cuban who talked about "fix", most rumberos I know don't even use concepts like 4, 6 or downbeat in their discussions of rumba. Only one of the best rumba drummers I have known even knows (knew) how to read and write music.
Would anyone here try to learn to sing opera from books or YouTube without studying with an opera singer? Unlikely you would ever get to the Met. Even classical violinists who want to learn to play bluegrass fiddle would generally study with bluegrass fiddlers. I never heard anyone play good Puerto Rican plena who had not studied, played and hung out with really good pleneros. So what makes people think you can learn to play, sing or dance rumba without learning directly from rumberos?
pcastag wrote:If you want to hear some fix just listen to some bata music, there are sections of ochosi and san lazaro in the oro seco that gave me fits when I was studyng in Habana. to me we were switching from 4 to 6, to my teachers nothing was changing. Took a few years and a lot of listening for it to really settle in, and I'm sure I still don't have it. A lot of this has to do with just relaxing and letting it breathe and fall in place naturally. Sueltelo! The command I heard over and over from my teacher and his kids.
Derbeno wrote:This phenomena under discussion is not unique to Rumba or Cuban music. You may think you are playing any of the Sambas with the right feel only for a Brazilian to shake their head, show you what you should do and you don't hear the difference!
Being from the Islands I know instantly if it's a non-caribbean (being PC here) is playing or singing Reggae. I am sure this applies to many other genres with a few exceptions.
African American music also comes mind. Think of Gospel for example.
Even those who study and immerse themselves a lifetime may come very close but there is still that 'je ne sias quoi' missing at times.
Here are two example below of Spiro and Jesus Diaz playing Guarapachangeo respectively. Don't get me wrong, Mike is a master, but he just can't swing it compared to Jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_5kTpyt5w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSqwiaT2K9k
rhythmrhyme wrote:jorge wrote:Who was that? Was he born and raised in Cuba? Of course this is only my experience but I never met a Cuban who talked about "fix", most rumberos I know don't even use concepts like 4, 6 or downbeat in their discussions of rumba. Only one of the best rumba drummers I have known even knows (knew) how to read and write music.
Hey Jorge - it's Jose, here's a link to his CV: http://www.richardaloysius.com/pdfs/JOS ... le2007.pdf He's not a rumbero, and that wasn't my point. Simply that there are different approaches to learning.
pcastag wrote:Alex Acuna described fix in Brasilian music as equivalant to how an egg rolls. Funky.
Kaban wrote:Is "fix" another word for "feel"?
bongosnotbombs wrote:You always hear "fix" in rumba, actually the real term is called swing.
The New Harvard Dictionary of Music wrote:SWING: An intangible rhythmic momentum in jazz. Swing defies analysis; claims to its presence may inspire arguments. But it is meaningful as a general concept: in swing and bebop, ‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions contrast with duple subdivisions.
davidpenalosa wrote: ...While I find this topic fascinating to think and talk about, I have found that any sense of authentic feel I have been able to replicate, came directly from playing with people who had that feel...
rhythmrhyme wrote:what!? you mean that if I spend all my time in the basement, reading notation and trying to get the "feel", I won't magically start speaking spanish or french and playing rumba and west african music as though I grew up in cuba or guinea!?
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