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bongosnotbombs wrote:Columbia cata really only feels like 6 in Columbia, in guaguanco the downbeats are downbeats, and the clave part of the cata pattern tends to match the rumba clave being played.

You don't have David Penalosa's book do you. He gives the best explanation. The basis of African rhythms is the polyrhythm 3/2 or 2/3. Some parts of a rhythm will mark the divisions of 3 and 2 simultaneously where they occur in the rhythm cycle. And that there are primary divisions of a tertiary or duple rhythm and there are secondary divisions...and on and on...

the standard bell pattern is the best example of this....basically one plays duple and tertiary divisions at the same time, it's inherent in the rhythm, which is part of the reason 12/8 rhythms can be cut up so many ways...1,2,3,4,6,8,12.

anyways, get the book, read it, you'll understand then...

I'll do that! Thanks for the tip.
I like this explanation a lot better than the simplified version Mike has provided, and that it ties back to the roots of african music and thought. It's a different way of thinking and listening that takes a bit of "reprogramming".

As I've said before - it would sure be nice if forum members could share in a less critical manner. It's a forum, not an old school beat down rumba thing. There's lots of knowledge here but getting past all the flippant criticism can be a challenge.

Oh, and you completely missed the joke, what comes between 4 and 6....5...

5 is cinco in spanish.....

syncopation, "CINCO" pation...between 4 and 6....okay get it now?

bongosnotbombs wrote:Oh, and you completely missed the joke, what comes between 4 and 6....5...

5 is cinco in spanish.....

syncopation, "CINCO" pation...between 4 and 6....okay get it now?

I caught that... Very clever

So, BnB, when you're playing rumba with Sandy and others, will the lead players pull and push the swing back and forth between 4 and 6 based on the tempo, what the dancers are doing etc., like what usually happens in the west african groups I've played in?

Greetings to all,

All this very informative information here has gotten me curious, so I took advantage of my company car, and stopped at a store that carries Michael Spiro's book, The Conga Drummer's Guidebook. In Section (9) Nine, the title is "Playing with the Right Feel-Finding "Fix"!" I want to also quote Spiro in this section: "I call this "averaging" of rhythm between a four and a six feel, "fix" (four and six), and it is an essential component of learning to swing in these styles." pg.38

At my job I often have to cut through a lot of information people inform me of, or read through official documents to get to the point to take correct actions. So when I asked if "fix" was another word for "feel", I know that was right, or very close to the concept. So to make it simple so a lot of us new intermediates can understand, fix is getting the right feel, or swing. If your teacher ain't got that swing, then you best get Spiro's book, I am lucky, mine does , and now I got this great book.

By the way, this book has a lot of comprehensive information; this isn't another conga book, this is a very serious book to be studied. I dare say there isn't another conga instructional book like it...maybe Ed Uribe's book comes close. This is for cats that are advanced in there technique, and want a true education of the subject at hand.

Kaban

Here is another book that has Rumba tracks and quinto solos, played and fully transcribed. The CD tracks gives the right feel to the notation. Took a while for it to get to me from Spain and now one of my precious possessions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0kQrgxTIe0

Derbeno, could you guide me to where I could purchase the book?

Man, when I do get the chance to play with Sandy I'm just trying to hang in there, and even when I'm not, I'm just trying to play instinctively and intuitively, there's no chance to analyze what people are doing or really think about what I'm going to play.

Fix or swing to me is like this.

If I play 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a I'm playing in 4 right?
If I play 1&a2&a3&a4&a I'm in 6/8 or 12/8

but if I play 1e&a2&a3&a4e&a I'm swinging it, or playing in fix, it's not really any more complicated than that.

That's cool Bnb, I get where you're coming from. My impression is that the "swing" may be more of a constant feel than something that gets pulled back and forth.

With some of the west african's I've played with the "swing" isn't always there. For example, the song may start out as a solid 4/4 thing 1e&a2e&a etc., and then push towards Fix as we've been describing on this thread, and then pull back to straight 4/4. This happened more when the lead djembe was calling moves for the dancers, pushing the tempo etc. Sometimes the rhythm would feel just about to flip over into a solid 12/8 and then it would pull back to 4/4. I never had the chops to pull it around like that when playing lead but had lots of time to sit back on first or second accompaniment and watch. This was never because the lead player was actually playing 1e&a followed by 2&a etc., but because he would push in somewhere inbetween. Sort of like the time signature just didn't matter and it was a fluid "cycle" in his mind. This is what I was trying to get at with my initial reference to "rumba cycle" and "bantu cycle", wondering if somewhere in the ancient history of the rhythms they were constructed as a continuous flow between say Yambu to Guaguanco to Columbia and that the distinctions between the rhythms came later.

The folkloric rumba's I've seen recordings of don't seem to push-pull quite like I described above - but if someone has an example of this I'd love to check it out!

RR

bongosnotbombs wrote:Man, when I do get the chance to play with Sandy I'm just trying to hang in there, and even when I'm not, I'm just trying to play instinctively and intuitively, there's no chance to analyze what people are doing or really think about what I'm going to play.

Fix or swing to me is like this.

If I play 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a I'm playing in 4 right?
If I play 1&a2&a3&a4&a I'm in 6/8 or 12/8

but if I play 1e&a2&a3&a4e&a I'm swinging it, or playing in fix, it's not really any more complicated than that.

No. If you mean that each character is an equal amount of time, I don't think people play like that, the 1,2,3,4 would be uneven and not sound right. If the time is not equal for each character but the 1, 2, 3, 4 are evenly spaced that is more like triplet fill ins in the second and third measures of 4/4 time and again, I don't think that is what you mean.

I think it is pretty futile to try to write AfroCuban swing in European music notation or millisecond scientific timing notation. This is an oral history and a music form learned by ear and passed directly from person to person for a reason, Western notation is inadequate to describe it exactly enough to be able to play it correctly from the notation. The usefulness of the written notation is not to teach others how to play it but rather to remind yourself of what you learned live from someone who plays it well. I think digital recordings work better for this level of nuance.

the 1, 2, 3, 4 are evenly spaced that is more like triplet fill ins in the second and third measures of 4/4 time and again

This is what I mean. It's quite simplified, but to me that is it in a nutshell, playing both meters within a rhythm and even a clave, and I try not to worry about it more than that.

As for written notation, I agree with you, it's reminders, and you can't get too hung up on what's written.

I dont know if I'm right(if not,let me now)but I think this video is a good exemple of playing in 4/4,then "fix"(4.21m) and to finnish in a triple feel(5.57m)

http://youtu.be/-c4B38DD7PQ

Beautiful music,mucho sabor!!

Not sure about the middle section [look forward to hearing what others have to say] but the end felt pure 6/8 to moi.
CUP ah tea cup ah tea CUP ah tea cup ah tea CUP ah tea cup ah tea etc

actually they break right around 5:50 and fully switch into a 6/8, timbale player leads it in with the classic 6/8 afro bell pattern. Prior to that they're in a 4/4 with some 12/8 fills and riff's.

rhythmrhyme wrote:actually they break right around 5:50 and fully switch into a 6/8, timbale player leads it in with the classic 6/8 afro bell pattern. Prior to that they're in a 4/4 with some 12/8 fills and riff's.

Thanks for the clarification.(they break to 6/8 precisely at 5.57)