What is the value of Congas and Bongos?

[bongosnotbombs]

Last night I was thinking about the Volcano thread while I was at the local jazz club.
It was a very heavy session. Beautiful to listen to and to watch.

I looked up on stage and saw the double bass, those instruments typically cost $10,000-$20,000 even more ($80,000), and then
more for the amp as well. Basses have a hard life, they are tough to transport, bulky and get smacked into things
and the solid wood ones always have problems with cracks as they age.

Then there was the drum kit, certainly a few thousand dollars there, getting banged on with sticks and
mallets, rim shots, even one guy striking the shaft of the hi-hat. A beautiful veneer on those drums as well.
I know drummers spend extra money on the veneers just to improve appearance. A bass drum is about as
large as a conga, but much more fragile. Each drum had it's own expensive hardcase it was placed in and then
I helped the drummer put the drums in the trunk of her car.

The guitarist had brought a beautiful Gibson with beautiful inlay on the fingerboard and a rare vintage amp.

My friend was playing sax, a vintage Selmer that he told me took him a long time to find and cost $8,000.
I tell people I paid $750 for one of my Skin on Skin's and they flip out! FLIP OUT! They can't believe it! Why can't a conga be worth
$750? Why can't a conga be worth $2,700? I perform with those SOS drums all over San Francisco. They are as clean as when I first got them.

This was a jam and people were taking turns with the bass, drums, and guitar. Everyone treated the instruments
with respect. I remembered when I used to play bongos at a different jam at this same venue, people who weren't
even musicians would grab them and bang on them, even musicians that did not know how to play them would grab them
sometimes. People have put drinks on my congas, even artists have done that.

Why don't people value and respect congas and bongos? Another thread is going on now where people are complaining about
sound guys not giving a crap about micing congas. Why should anyone care about a conga? People don't really play them, they just bang and smack on them and it is just going to get tossed in the trunk and banged up.

When my father recently was shopping for a new guitar, we looked at a lot of them. $1,000, $2,000, $3,000, etc. Lots of times
the only difference between a $2,000 guitar and a $4,000 guitar was the $4,000 guitar had very intricate and beautiful inlays
around the sound hole, or in the fingerboard, or beautifully flamed and book matched wood for the back. These things do nothing
to improve the sound of the guitar only it's appearance. The same thing with a drum kit, some veneers cost a lot of money and are just
for looks. So if Thom Alexander spends all this extra time polishing the hardware, selecting wood, book matching and finishing one
of his Volcano drums, why can't it cost more than one of Jay Bereck's drums or Matt Smith's? Especially if it took more time, cost and effort?
Lots of other musicians spend plenty of extra money on their instruments appearance.

I remember when Johnny Conga mentioned how his drums never had a mark on them and he never let them touch each other and that
he felt they were a projection of his self as a professional artist. JC is a professional musician. He certainly plays his drums in a variety of venues, transporting them everywhere and takes the time to make sure they don't get all marked up and scratched. I was very impressed by that attitude of JC's.
Especially when you consider how long he has been playing, and where he started playing: the streets of NY city.

Whenever I watch the saxophone players,they always take the utmost care of their instruments, wiping them down, putting them back in the case, putting that fluffy thing inside them,taking the mouthpiece off. They give their instrument total respect, and in return I've seen them get a lot of respect. I've never seen anyone treat someone's saxophone the way I have seen people treat my drums.

I'm starting to suspect that the reason congas and bongos can't get respect or be perceived to have any value is because many
congueros and bongoceros don't treat the drums with any respect and perceive their instruments to have limited value. When I
see the park drummers with their trashed congas, drinking and getting high, I realize that is a perception of percussion and percussionists.
That percussionists are not serious musicians and their music belongs in the park and their instruments are toys to be played in the park.
I believe if I as a percussionist want my instrument to be respected and valued as other musicians instruments are respected, then I have to treat
my drums with as much respect as I saw these jazz musicians value their instruments last night. I also think a conga has every right to be as valuable and
expensive as any other instrument.

[umannyt]

I also think a conga has every right to be as valuable and
expensive as any other instrument.

I agree with you--in a way. Being also a guitarist (much longer than I've been a percussionist and I happen to own a Martin guitar but not a top-of-the line, among other guitars) and a big fan of stringed and brass instruments in general and drums (all of which I've played somewhat, I can appreciate the value of, say, a limited-edition or artist-signature (Jeff Beck or Jimmy Page) Gibson Les Paul electric guitar, an abalone-inlaid Taylor guitar, a Stradivarius violin or viola, a Steinway grand piano, a set of Collector's-Wood-series DW drums, etc.

But, IMO, a real issue is not so much that conga has a right to be expensive as any other instrument (not all instruments are expensive) but how much people are willing to pay for a conga. Tom Alexander can put 24-karat gold-plated or diamond-studded hardware on his Volcano congas, if he wants to, costing say $25,000 each. But, the practical question is: Who would be willing to pay for such a conga? I'm sure that there are some among the 6 billion plus total population of the world who have the financial means and/or willingness to pay for such a conga. A Bill Gates, an oil sheik from Saudi Arabia, etc. perhaps? But, how many would they be?

Tom has to make his business a going concern. And he can't rely on just a few elite customers who can afford his most expensive congas. That's precisely why, IMO, Tom has introduced his "cheaper" line of congas. Like any other business that wants to make a profit or at least survive, they have to have the right product mix in order to do so.

IMO, another real issue is the bottom line for most, if not all, serious musicians: Sound. Speaking only for myself, if I can get the sound I want or am looking for from, say, an LP Matador or Gon Bops or SOS or Matthew Smith, why would I pay for Volcano's top-of-the-line Koa congas costing practically $2,500 each (which may even sound slightly inferior) when I can get the other congas for prices ranging from about $300 to $1,000 each?

IMO, still another real issue is this: Return on investment. Remember that some congueros/bongoceros are professional congueros/bongoceros who have made conga/bongo-playing a source of livehood--either main or part-time. It's only common sense that these guys would be concerned about the return on their investment(s), especially if they're getting paid, say, $150 or even less for every gig and if they're getting a lot of gigs or not.

[RitmoBoricua]

<<I believe if I as a percussionist want my instrument to be respected and valued as other musicians instruments are respected, then I have to treat my drums with as much respect as I saw these jazz musicians value their instruments last night. I also think a conga has every right to be as valuable and expensive as any other instrument.>>

Very true. I treat drums with respect and take care of them to the point that I have learned a great deal on finishing and refinishing wood just for the purpose of keeping my drums looking good. But there are others like the percussionist I mentioned in the other thread a good player but he just did not care too much about taking care of his drums. For him as long as the drum was functional it was all good. You have people like that too if the drums are not scratched and dented they do not feel good about their drums. Same thing with people letting their cowbells rust for the sake of getting a better sound. I guess for them functionality over aesthetics float their boat. Not me I like my instruments to look good, no rust on my cowbells.
You have a good point why can a conga or bongo drum worth as much as any upright bass, Steinway piano , a vintage Martin or Gibson guitar. After all they all are music instruments. But I fear this may have to do too with the color of the skin of those who created this drums and rhythms in the beginning. I know there is this perception in many camps that these drums are nothing more than jungle instruments used to play jungle music and not equal in value to most european music instruments. Here in the U.S. the african slaves were basically stripped of their culture and drums. The powers that be here in the states back in the day basically demonized the african slaves culture. But now is a new day and the drums have long returned but there still lots of work left to do to get this drums, the music, the rhythms and the culture where they need to be. My 2 cents. Good post bongosnotbombs keep them coming.

[Psych1]

Good post BNB. I mentioned in another post about a friend of mine who bought a violin bow on Ebay for $5000 - when top bongos are $500. I have a top bongo that I keep in top condition in a great case - it looks as good as the day it was made. I also have an old battle-scarred LP that has been around the world in backpacks and duffle bags and looks like it. You know which one I play.

[umannyt]

But I fear this may have to do too with the color of the skin of those who created this drums and rhythms in the beginning. I know there is this perception in many camps that these drums are nothing more than jungle instruments used to play jungle music.

I beg to disagree. I don't think that this is the pervasive attitude. On the contrary, and depending on the genre/type of music being played, congas/bongos are highly-regarded and respected instruments.

Blues and Jazz have mainly Black or Afro-American roots, but they evidently are very highly-regarded musical/art forms. In fact, to my observation, Blues and Jazz are elevated to an even higher pedestal than Rock & Roll and Pop music.

I think the perception in some camps that congas/bongos are "nothing more than jungle instruments used to play jungle music" is caused to some extent by park drum-circle "bangers" who produce more noise than percussive music. And I'm certainly not referring to competent rumba circles.

[taikonoatama]

Great post, Geordie.

I think there are some interesting cultural differences that come into play here as well regarding the treatment of congas by congueros.

Think of the Cubans we see and play with here in the San Francisco area. Think of what happens when Sandy Perez plays bembe caja and picks up a big stick with his right hand and just beats the hell out of the shell and bearing edge (as much as the top of the skin). There is no consideration given to what might happen to the drum/finish. That's just how you play. So the drums gets some dents and scratches - big deal. It probably seems really odd to him when someone hits only the hardware because they're afraid of messing up the finish or bearing edge (and that's one great reason for having a great-sounding, well-broken-in semi-beater set to take to sessions where you're going to want to play the the whole drum).

I think Cuban (rumberos) think of the conga primarlily as a tool (and I mean that in a good way) and anything that might happen to it as result of using it the way it's meant to be used is just accepted as a natural consequence of correct usage.

That being said, I still can't bring myself to beat the shells and bearing edges of my Matt Smiths. Hard to get past that for me with a new drum. My old Valje set, however, was already thoroughly broken in when I got it, and I think nothing of wailing on the shell with a stick.

James

[jorge]

James your example reminds me of a class at the Humboldt 2007 session. Francisco Aguabella was teaching bembe and grabbed one of the students' drums to demonstrate the caja part. It was a brand new really fancy conga with hardware going all the way down the side and Francisco started to play it like a caja is supposed to be played. Although Francisco is known for the awsome power of his drumming, he actually was not hitting the drum very hard. He was playing with a stick in one hand and the other hand open, and was hitting the top and edge of the skin and the wood side of the drum with the stick. The student, I guess not really knowing much about Francisco Aguabella, started to lecture him about hitting the side only on the metal part. Well Francisco took that student apart, twice, in both English and in Spanish. I have not even the slightest sadistic streak in me, but even I found it pretty comical.
A drum is a drum, a musical instrument, not a piece of furniture behind glass in a museum or covered with plastic in your mother's living room. I am all for taking care of your instrument, but if you are going to bring a drum to a rumba or a class to be played, leave your museum pieces of furniture at home and bring a functional drum that can withstand being played as a drum should be played. In fact, at least for the skin, I think playing a drum more makes it sound better (at least until the skin reaches the end of its life), so sometimes your more beat up drums that you take to all the rumbas wind up sounding better than the gorgeous works of art with new skins that get played much less. Some abuse is bound to happen at inspired rumbas, from being hit with sticks or claves, to getting tuned with some not all of the lugs, to rum spilling on the skin. You can't spend your time watching your drum every second or worrying about these minor abuses when you are trying to enjoy the rumba. Unnecessary excessive abuse of the drum by knocking it over, playing guagua on the side with square edged hardwood claves, putting cold beer bottles with condensation on the skin, or tuning it too high because no one brought a quinto, are usually avoidable and mainly perpetrated by non-rumberos with no respect for the drum.
Just about every drum I have seen in Cuba has been well broken in to say the least, I have never seen a museum piece drum there. And a lot of those drums sound really really good. They do tend to play bembe on bembe drums and not congas, but not always. Their vintage cars are another story, some of them look great and sound terrible, but their drums get played a lot more than drums here, and wind up looking beat up but sounding great. Of course, knowing how to make it sound good is 90% of the story.
So what do you value more in your drums, the sound or the appearance? To some degree they are independent or sometimes even mutually exclusive. If you are mainly interested in drums as financial investments, leave your pretty drums at home or only play them at gigs where no one else has access to them. If you want to really enjoy playing at rumbas, get a sturdy, good sounding drum and don't sweat the little abuses. A hardwood drum, like oak, could let you have your cake and eat it too, just make sure you stay in shape so you can carry it (or get a case with wheels).

[pcastag]

James your example reminds me of a class at the Humboldt 2007 session. Francisco Aguabella was teaching bembe and grabbed one of the students' drums to demonstrate the caja part. It was a brand new really fancy conga with hardware going all the way down the side and Francisco started to play it like a caja is supposed to be played. Although Francisco is known for the awsome power of his drumming, he actually was not hitting the drum very hard. He was playing with a stick in one hand and the other hand open, and was hitting the top and edge of the skin and the wood side of the drum with the stick. The student, I guess not really knowing much about Francisco Aguabella, started to lecture him about hitting the side only on the metal part. Well Francisco took that student apart, twice, in both English and in Spanish. I have not even the slightest sadistic streak in me, but even I found it pretty comical.
A drum is a drum, a musical instrument, not a piece of furniture behind glass in a museum or covered with plastic in your mother's living room. I am all for taking care of your instrument, but if you are going to bring a drum to a rumba or a class to be played, leave your museum pieces of furniture at home and bring a functional drum that can withstand being played as a drum should be played. In fact, at least for the skin, I think playing a drum more makes it sound better (at least until the skin reaches the end of its life), so sometimes your more beat up drums that you take to all the rumbas wind up sounding better than the gorgeous works of art with new skins that get played much less. Some abuse is bound to happen at inspired rumbas, from being hit with sticks or claves, to getting tuned with some not all of the lugs, to rum spilling on the skin. You can't spend your time watching your drum every second or worrying about these minor abuses when you are trying to enjoy the rumba. Unnecessary excessive abuse of the drum by knocking it over, playing guagua on the side with square edged hardwood claves, putting cold beer bottles with condensation on the skin, or tuning it too high because no one brought a quinto, are usually avoidable and mainly perpetrated by non-rumberos with no respect for the drum.
Just about every drum I have seen in Cuba has been well broken in to say the least, I have never seen a museum piece drum there. And a lot of those drums sound really really good. They do tend to play bembe on bembe drums and not congas, but not always. Their vintage cars are another story, some of them look great and sound terrible, but their drums get played a lot more than drums here, and wind up looking beat up but sounding great. Of course, knowing how to make it sound good is 90% of the story.
So what do you value more in your drums, the sound or the appearance? To some degree they are independent or sometimes even mutually exclusive. If you are mainly interested in drums as financial investments, leave your pretty drums at home or only play them at gigs where no one else has access to them. If you want to really enjoy playing at rumbas, get a sturdy, good sounding drum and don't sweat the little abuses. A hardwood drum, like oak, could let you have your cake and eat it too, just make sure you stay in shape so you can carry it (or get a case with wheels).

No Doubt.

[Omelenko1]

I don't accept drum abuse no matter what drum you have. If someone is playing guagua they should use a cata' or cajita china for that, beating a conga on the side with a wrench or a clave is not proper and I will not allow it. I'm Cuban born and if you want to play guagua don't do it on my conga, I had some words with Mongo and Patato regarding the very same subject some years back, use a cata' or a cajon for that purpose, but not the side of a conga. Eso no va conmigo.

Dario

[OLSONGO]

I am with Dario, no guagua on my congas . The cata or caja is more suitable for it ..sounds better anyways, cuts through more.
I remember a gig when the client said to me " I can tell you are a pro , you bring your congas in their cases and they look in great shape". Interesting observation on the clients part. I don't understand those players with those beat up congas on gigs. is like wearing a ripped up dirty old pair of jeans, though that was fashionable recently with the new school , it goes to tell you, today"s taste.
Also love those bumpers one of the best inventions of the recent years.

[congamyk]

I am with Dario, no guagua on my congas . The cata or caja is more suitable for it ..sounds better anyways, cuts through more.
I remember a gig when the client said to me " I can tell you are a pro , you bring your congas in their cases and they look in great shape". Interesting observation on the clients part. I don't understand those players with those beat up congas on gigs. is like wearing a ripped up dirty old pair of jeans, though that was fashionable recently with the new school , it goes to tell you, today"s taste.
Also love those bumpers one of the best inventions of the recent years.

You love the bumpers but HATE handles?

I'm with you about scratched up and banged up drums.
I keeps my drums like my women.... pristine.

[umannyt]

...I remember a gig when the client said to me " I can tell you are a pro , you bring your congas in their cases and they look in great shape". Interesting observation on the clients part. I don't understand those players with those beat up congas on gigs. is like wearing a ripped up dirty old pair of jeans, though that was fashionable recently with the new school , it goes to tell you, today"s taste.
Also love those bumpers one of the best inventions of the recent years.

OLSONGO,

I'm with you on congas being brought (to gigs) and kept (at home) in cases or bags. And also on conga tuning rod bumpers.

IMO, the bumpers that Gon Bops/DW make especially for their CA series congas and the similar-looking ones that Volcano Percussions put on theirs (I suspect they're purchased from Gon Bops/DW.) are the best-designed and most effective bumpers currently available in the market. Mine are both very tough (from tearing) and durable.

I remember that some people on this forum find them ugly. Personally, I don't and I'll just have to leave it simply as a matter of personal taste, just like installing handles on conga shells (which I personally don't care for).

I, too, try my darnest to keep my congas (especially my Gon Bops CAs) in immaculate condition. So, re: beat congas on gigs, I'll have to also say, "To each, his own."

For me, it would be no different than the case with Willie Nelson and his beat up acoustic classical guitar. As you may already know, not only is his guitar super beat up with scratches and all, but it even has a big hole on on the top wood right below the string saddle. He's the only singer/guitarist I know who has no inhibitions about using such a guitar in public. If that were my guitar, it'll go straight to the dumps and that would be my perfect excuse to buy myself a new one.

Yet, that and his grubby-looking appearance, even in his public performances, don't seem to have a negative effect on his marketability. On the contrary, his beat-up guitar has become one of his unique, easily-recognizable trademarks.

I suppose one can conclude that generally the public allows artists more slack in exhibiting some of their idiosyncratic behavior than others. The public seems to more easily tolerate and accept it as a "normal" part of being a genuine artist.

[BMac]

Well gentlemen, I for one am rather glad that the finest congas in the world (Mopercs obviously, but let's not get that started) cost far less than the finest guitars, violins, upright basses, and such. Let's not be envious of those prices that other musicians pay. As far as goes why we pay less ... I can't say for sure. But a nice conga does have less distinct parts than a guitar. By that, I mean that the staves are not distinct from each other. Whether that explains it all ... I can't say. I can't compare the income of master conga makers to that of luthiers. I have never gotten the sense that conga craftsmen get rich ... in fact I expect they live somewhat modestly.

But people are always going to walk up to our instruments and ask to play ... when they would know well enough not to ask that of a guitarist. Perhaps it is only because our instruments look simple, and good playing technique is illusive. One drum, two hands ... looks simple right? In any event, once I confirm that someone is wearing no rings, and is instructed to use only their hands, I'll let almost anyone play my drums a bit. You almost can't hurt a nice conga with nice skins with only your hands. Beginners sooner hurt their hands ... usually by beating their thumbs on the hardware ... ouch!

So I accept all that ...

But drinks on my drums?
How about a lit cigarette balanced on the edge burning down toward the skin?
Or even just smoking a cigarette over my drums and letting the ash finally tumble onto a skin .... AHHHH!!! ... just go ahead and ash in my wine glass while you're at it please!
Or sharp little drumsticks?
Here's my favorite one: Lay the drum on its side and sit on it ... leaning over the edge to play it ... can you tell I used to go to drum circles?
These are heresies!

They just don't know ... they don't understand a skin takes months to really play in ... oh well. When I've tried to explain, it just offends people ... I've tried to be nice about it ... but they act like I am a jerk for insisting they take off their sharp little wedding rings ... how much does a skin even cost? ... $60? ... what's the big deal? ... and so on.

We can only commiserate with each other on these things.
Cheers,
BMac

[yambu321]

HOWDY TO ALL,
I JUST WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT WE ARE VERY FORTUNATE AS TO NOT HAVING TO PAY THOUSANDS, FOR A DRUM.

BUT, TO GET AWAY FROM THE MONETARY VALUE COMPARISONS BETWEEN, HANDDRUMS AND STRING INSTRUMENTS, LET'S JUST PUT THE MEAT BACK INTO THE FREEZER. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE NUMBER ONE FACTOR ON HOW A DRUM IS MOSTLY VALUED, IN THE EYES OF MOST, IS FULLY DEPENDANT ON THE OWNER'S OWN ACTIONS. THE FACT IS, THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE DRAWN, FOR EXAMPLE, TO A CONGA BECAUSE, IT'S WITH IN ARMS REACH AND IS UNATTENDED. ALSO IT WOULD TAKE MUCH MORE BALLS TO WALK UP TO A GUITAR STAND, GRAB THE GUITAR AND MESS WITH IT. THE CONGA IN MOST PEOPLES MINDS, IS EASY ENOUGH TO TAP IT AND GET A SOUND. THEN THERE ARE THE OTHER TYPES, THE ONES THAT DO KNOW HOW TO PLAY SOME, AND JUST THINK THEY HAVE A LICENSE TO JUST TAP AWAY ON ANYONE'S DRUMS. IF AN OWNER CARRIES HIMSELF WITH THE "AIR OF A PROFESSIONAL". FULLY READY WITH ALL THAT IS REQUIRED, CAREFULLY HANDLES AND TUNES HIS DRUMS, PLACES THE BONGO BACK IN ITS BAG, AND FLIPS THE CONGAS UPSIDE DOWN ON SOFT CLOTHS, OR PLACES COVERS ON TOP OF THE DRUM HEADS, IT WILL DEFINATELY PREVENT 99% OF THE CRAP. IF ONE MUST ASK THE GUITAR PLAYER, AND OR BASS PLAYER, IF ONE CAN PLAY HIS OR HER INSTRUMENT, THEY SHOULD DO THE SAME, IN REGARDS TO OUR DRUMS. IF SOMEONE ASKS, IT SHOWS RESPECT, AND IS A VERY COOL THING.

REMEMBER THIS, HOW ONE CARRIES ONESELF, IS OF THE UPMOST IMPORTANCE IN THIS RESPECT.

ALWAYS,
CHARLIE.

[akdom]

Hi all

Very interesting thread indeed.

Now, I really think that all of you guys are right.

But, in my case, I never had brand new instruments and always had to buy second or third hand drums. Even though I play a lot, gig a lot and make a (small) living out of music. I always cared a lot about my drums. Replacing the heads for high quality selected skins. I always tune my drums before playing and loosen them once I'm done. My drums always sounded amazingly good. But they always looked ugly. I really do not think that my drums reflected a lack of respect.

As some of you already know, I just ordered a brand new set of Bauer (arriving on Monday). I already have the cases (Gator with wheels) which I paid 50€ a piece. My new set costs over 1 200€ and I do know that they will be treated as they deserve.

The thing is that, as I said above, I always had already beat up congas before.. Some do not have a choice. And this is why I think that paying too much for a drum is insane. Even if I was rich, I would NEVER buy a 1000$ conga! The quality of such drums might not be worth this price while 6 or 700$ drums are just amazingly perfect and perfectly do the job, and even more!

Now I'd like to say that in my opinion, prices of congas are wrong! Not because of handcrafted drums built with skills and love, but because of mass produced drums, made abroad by extremely cheap labor force and sold back to us via major brands for 3 or 4 times the producing cost while others barely make a living by selling us their lovely drums with a much thinner margin!

The price is imposed by the market and quality is secondary. Now, I do not agree with this fact (this is why I decided to get a set of Bauer - which is a real hassle to get here in France) and I hope you guys will understand my point of view since you all seem to know what you are talking about.

So, please, do not categorize people that fast (except for drum circle aficionados the respect you have towards your instruments doesn't necessarily mean that you must have spotless instruments.

B