A COOL recording tool!

[Miguel7]

Hi all,

I don't know about you, but I don't just play congas. I play a bunch of other percussion instruments and enough piano and guitar to be dangerous So to help further my understanding of how the rhythms work together in a song, and also to do a little writing/recording and have a blast in the process, I found Audacity:

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Now this might be old news to some, but this program is simply the best! It's free, but unlike most freebies it's loaded with features (most of which I either know the basics of or have no clue about lol). Now I'm not "advertising" it (there is no "pro version" or whatever and I can't stand spammers either) but if you record at all or even just want to hear how you sound, you can't beat Audacity. Also I've taken it a step further: using their overdubbing and a good-quality microphone, I learned how to create whole songs, recording one instrument at a time.

So... anyone else already doing that? I'd like 2 hear what u do so we can compare notes.

[BMac]

The tricky point for me when trying to bring my sound to my computer is at the input stage to the computer. There seems to be plenty of free software out there, or software that comes with the needed extra hardware ... and thanks nonetheless for bringing a specific platform up for discussion ... but without upgrading my input stage it just doesn't matter what software is on my laptop.

I've got a Toshiba Satellite. It's over two years old. It's been a great computer. But ... there's always a but ... the only way I know to get analog sound into the laptop is through the 1/8 inch microphone input. From what I can tell, the digital conversion by the hardware that came on the laptop is crap. It's fine for voice recording. One could, for example, record the voices in a meeting with any crappy microphone and it would work fine. But when I try to bring live sound in through that microphone input ... the recorded playback sounds like crap. This limitation has nothing to do with my microphones, because when I send in stereo or mono sound output from my board, using a recorded CD for example feeding into my board, the recording by the laptop also sounds like crap at playback. There's just not a decent flat frequency recording and playback function using the sound card or DAC or whatever is in there that came with the laptop. I know I'm handing it a decent analog signal, I can check that with my reference monitors at the board ... so I know my problem starts somewhere at the laptop. Ironically, the stereo headphone output of the laptop puts out great sound. I download music and play out of the headphone output and send that to my board and through my system and it rocks the house in a wide flat frequency range. I'm not really complaining here about the microphone input of the laptop. Toshiba didn't market this laptop as ready for premium digital recording studio use, and that's where it fails. A typical buyer only expects to download and listen to music, and the laptop is great for that.

I already have CD burners as separate devices. So that's how I go digital now. I burn CD's on a separate device and then put the CD's in my laptop and rip the music from the CD's.

So ... while we're discussing good free software ... can we also discuss how to get good analog to digital conversion on a budget? Once I have my mics set up and have great analog sound on my board, how do get good sound to my computer for recording and manipulation? ... without burning to a CD and then ripping from there that is.

Cheers!
BMac

[Miguel7]

That's a good question, but one I'm honestly not qualified to answer. I sooo don't get hardware stuff lol. I have heard of a "sound card" and that might have something to do with it. But to be honest I think the problem is that you're using a laptop - I can't record decent quality on my laptop either. I'm guessing an external sound card might help, but again I know next to nothing about stuff like that

[Psyammy]

hey guys, the problem your having is not with your "sound card" it is the laptop mic, if you hooked up a good mic to your laptop you would get a much better recording. (look to get a mic with a USB plug on it so you can just "plug it in" and use it)

hope this helps
Psyammy

[BMac]

Hooking up a good mic to my laptop doesn't help. To be clear, this is what I mean by that:
I can send any kind of sound from my board to my laptop. My board puts out stereo sound and I can vary the signal intensity across a wide range. The sound from my board can come into my board from a good mic like an SM-57 or one of Shure's instrument mics, or the sound can come in from a quality recorded CD, or whatever. It's a board. It has lots of inputs and lots of outputs. So I know how to get a quality stereo analog signal to my laptop. But my laptop doesn't seem to process any analog signal entering through the 1/8 inch mic input into the digital domain worth a crap. I've tried to record and manipulate using several free software sound processing programs and they all sound about the same ... like crap. I'm guessing that the analog-to-digital conversion at the 1/8 inch mic input of the laptop is crap, so if I use that input, I'll get crap. Again, the sound is fine for a business meeting voice recording, or even maybe strumming a guitar and basic vocal range singing. But wiring in nasty thumpy house music just doesn't work out ... it sounds like crap ... and I ain't recording business meetings by the way if you can't guess. I'm going after nasty thumpy house music, even some dubstep ... think w-w-w-w-w-i-i-i-i-i-d-d-d-d-d-e-e-e-e-e frequency range. I can send in the lows, but they don't get recorded. I know the lows are in the mix, cause I can hear them on the monitors and record them on a CD burner. I just don't think the ADC serving the 1/8 inch mic input of the laptop is up to the job.

Now perhaps there is another ADC that processes sound coming in through a USB port ... but I'd be surprised if the laptop maker built into two ADC's. I could be wrong though. They didn't spend much on the ADC that serves the 1/8 inch mic input so maybe there is another ADC that serves USB ports. I don't know. But I don't put enough faith in that theory to go buy a mic with a USB plug on it. Maybe one day one will just happen to drift through in a friend's gear and I can check out Psyammy's suggestion.

Like you Miguel, I've heard of sound cards. I don't know much about them either. There may be a card out there built for my application: taking analog sound and producing quality digital data. I also suspect that working with a laptop limits my options. It just seems like a big PC chassis is easier to access and accessorize than a laptop. I am afraid to open the case of my laptop. But quite frankly, I don't want to haul around a big PC ... I want to be mobile ... so there's no solution there. I think you're on the right track with your response, but the two of us added up still don't have much specific knowledge on this it seems.

I've seen the external hardware used by studio friends and DJ's. They typically have a separate hardware device that lives between the analog sound sources (boards, instruments, mics ... whatever) and their computers (PC or laptop). Those devices are typically smaller than a shoe box. But those guys aren't here to interrogate and it's always late, dark, and loud when I see them and they'd rather be funking their mix or talking to girls than showing me how their gear works ... go figure. I have gotten from them that the separate device is expensive ... like $500. Well ... expensive is relative. This recording challenge isn't high enough priority for me to spend that kind of money.

But it is high enough priority for me to bang around ideas and questions in this forum in my free time.

Anybody else got thoughts on this or specific recommendations for solutions under $100?

Cheers!
BMac

[vasikgreif]

Hi,
first of all, you should really read some basics about recording, that will make many things clearer for you: http://www.google.cz/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=home+recording+basics
If you are at least little serious about recording, you should get external soundcard. The built in mic inputs in notebooks do work, and they shouldn't sound like total crap (I suppose you are doing something wrong when trying to use them as input, maybe you have the input level too "hot"?), but any external sound card will work better.
There's another reason to buy external soundcard - latency http://www.google.cz/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=soundcard+latency#hl=cs&sa=X&ei=xrkXTeXSFcmX8QPOlamEBw&ved=0CBYQBSgA&q=sound+card+latency&spell=1&fp=bfafa08e53c2f78a. That means, if you would like to do multitrack recording one instrument after another, you need soundcard that is able to play and record at once with the lowest latency possible, so the instruments do play at once. This is impossible with internal soundcard, where the latency is big and so recording one instrument on the top of another is impossible.
There are many souncards out there, it depenends mainly on how many mic inputs you need. You can have a look here: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/co ... interfaces for some overview of what hardware is out there, or check any other music eshop.
If you are on a budget, I can recommend the M-Audio products, they work well and offer the best value for the money spent. If your intention is do some homerecording, you won't need more, there's always some basic music-production software built in.
Just to be clear, as usually, if you won't a pro gear, it will cost much more, but for a normal non-prorecording use, you don't need to spent thousands dollars...

Btw., I got this "soundcard" - http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-pr ... mode=model

[bongosnotbombs]

Zoom H2, or Zoom H4. I use the H2, love it!

[jorge]

Vanessa beat me to the punch, yeah, what she said.

To add to that, before you give up on the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) in your laptop, try recording something at low volume. One of the biggest problems with digital recording is that if your signal is too hot (strong, loud) you get a horrible distortion known as digital clipping. This is not possible to fix once recorded, but you may simply have to feed the 1/8" input a signal that is less strong. You can get clipping in the digital domain that can be eliminated by turning down the gain of that input in the Windows mixer (or whatever software you are using). You can get a different type of clipping in the analog domain or in the ADC conversion process that cannot be eliminated by turning down the digital gain in the software. For that you must use a signal reducing circuit called a pad, or a mic that produces a weaker signal. If your music is super loud, you might even be clipping the mic, and then need either softer music or a mic that has a higher maximum sound pressure level. But first step is to see if you get acceptable audio quality recording a normal conversation in a quiet room. It is worth another try to see if you might be able to just lower the recording volume and get a usable recording from the mic input of your laptop.

That Yamaha mixer in the previous post is way more than you need to overdub one channel at a time onto a multitrack recording in Audacity. If you don't want to build a whole studio with sound isolation booths that you can use for multitracking 2 or more instruments into 2 or more separate channels without "bleed" from one instrument into the channel of the other instrument, then all you really need is a stereo sound card. There are a million sound cards out there, most will be fine for general recording that does not need to be professional quality. Look for one that connects to the PC by USB. USB is already digital, so the ADC is in the sound card and the sound card puts out a digital signal into the laptop's USB port.

If you want to use many channels of condenser recording mics you need a source of phantom power and a mixer like that Yamaha is a good solution but is over $1k and weighs 30 pounds. For about $700 you can get the smaller Yamaha n8. A much smaller mixer that can record from 4 mics with phantom power, can be used in a live setting, and has a 2 channel USB out with decent ADC is the Allen & Heath ZED10FX or ZED10, which is about $250. All these are better solutions than a simple soundcard because they have decent microphone preamplifiers, XLR mic inputs, gain controls, and excellent sound. You can get sound cards under $100 that are tiny, powered by your laptop, with good sound and good latency, but they generally have 1/8" mic jacks and no physical gain control (use software).

If you don't need to do overdubbing, I have a simple Zoom H2 digital recorder with mics that I use for recording live performances that sounds reasonably good, is really light and portable, and you can edit your recordings in Audacity (or SoundForge, or ProTools, or Samplitude, or Cubase, or Garage Band, or Logic, or...).

[Tonio]

Whether you go with a digital interface or on board computer "soundcard" for multitrack capabilities, consider the bit depth. Currently most cheap and pro-sumer products are @ 24 bits/44.1kz vs 16bit/44,1khz-which is what is used for a CD. Head what Jorge suggested for 24bit, as 16 bit is the opposite. So , the software will need a conversion from a higher resolution to the format for distribution whether thats CD, youtube or web streaming. There are decent products out their in a interface (AD/DA converters) with pre amps included among other bells & whistles. The interface is basically for in/out to your computer, and mixing can be done with the software, where a mixer type outboard hardware of the past. Although there are many mixer type interfaces (converters built in)being produced, it is not really necessary. It is different style which may give you more options for hardware integration for the front end, and possible mixing duties.
With different types of connectors used be prepare to buy cables. Cables and connectors can be daunting with type and levels( -10 or +4) can be of different configuration(TS, TRS, XLR, ADAT, AES/EBU, SPDIF coax, optical etc) and cost. Most mixer types provide a built in amp for balanced and unbalanced integration, and interfaces may have in switchable or software integration.
Another consideration is the mic and pre amp, and maybe more important is the room or environment used, not to mention the instrument and performer involved.
A microphone type and quality with proper or creative use will give the recording the 2nd most variable to the performance.
Mic types in general may include dynamic and condenser. Most if not all condensers require phantom power to be able to use them. But both require a pre amp. Each type may have different capsule patterns" omni, cardioid, hypercardioid, figure of 8 and anywhere in between. Each capsule can give you different use and character of source pick up at hand.

[windhorse]

I have used this microphone for 2 years.
http://www.amazon.com/Samson-Track-Microphone-Audio-Interface/dp/B0015MJE22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1244128384&sr=8-1
The recordings I get from this Mic are excellent with my Macbook Pro/Garage Band, and the mic. Obviously, as you guys have hinted, a good sound card is essential to good sound, but a high quality USB mic precludes the need for mixing board, if a one mic set-up is all you need.

[mrhands]

Zoom H2, or Zoom H4. I use the H2, love it!

It's funny. I just purchased the H2. It's a pretty neat machine. I'm glad I came to this forum today to find a thread about free software because it just what I've been looking for at this moment in time. I want to record myself playing along to songs I like to play too and post them on youtube or whatever. I've already done one video strictly with the H2 in 2ch mode with me and my congas on one end and a stereo speaker on the other...congaplace.com, well done. You helped me find exactly what I'm looking for.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6051

[Miguel7]

Hey mrhands, glad that helped. There are all kinds of other programs out there that are free, but many of them are "demo versions" or "trial versions" and Audacity is the only one I know that is 100% totally free. The more I do with it, the more I see its potential.

It sounds like you have a really cool idea recording w/your favorite songs! Now, if these songs are mp3's you can import them into Audacity by doing a click-drag or the menu "File > Import > Audio". Otherwise the song you're working with might not come out as clearly. Also another thing to consider is what's called latency (a sort of delay between when a sound is recorded and when it reaches the computer, something like that). When I was new to Audacity I didn't understand why, but my playing was out of sync: so go to "Edit > Preferences" and try to find the right latency correction level (mine is -128).

Now about this thing with mics, I'm sorry but I don't know how to help. I used a cheap headset mic on my desktop till I got the chance to upgrade to a good quality mic. I don't know much about types of mics or H2 or H4 or whatever... hope u can figure it out.

[mrhands]

Thanks Miguel7. I used to run Ableton Live when I did some home recording a couple of years ago and Audacity seems like a really scaled down version of it. It may not have as many options or look as nice, but I have no gripes about it being that it is free.
I'm looking to do what you say, especially if I decide to put videos of myself up. I don't have a video camera currently. But now that I have this program I can actually record my conga parts separately from the actual song. Regarding the H2, I got the hang of it. The missing peice was Audacity. I've download the LAME MP3 encoder....have you downloaded anything else such as the plugin library etc.?

[CongaTick]

mrhands....BTW. very impressed with audio play-along piece you posted in another thread. I love your chops and would like to see you play.

[Miguel7]

Thanks Miguel7. I used to run Ableton Live when I did some home recording a couple of years ago and Audacity seems like a really scaled down version of it. It may not have as many options or look as nice, but I have no gripes about it being that it is free.
I'm looking to do what you say, especially if I decide to put videos of myself up. I don't have a video camera currently. But now that I have this program I can actually record my conga parts separately from the actual song. Regarding the H2, I got the hang of it. The missing peice was Audacity. I've download the LAME MP3 encoder....have you downloaded anything else such as the plugin library etc.?

I'm so glad it helped! That was why I posted this. To answer your question, I haven't downloaded any plug-ins but if you find any good ones (especially for congas/percussion in general) I'd be interested to see what they do