Conga Internal Mics

[+pablo+]

uno mas...

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... cable3.jpg

[onile]

Disculpa Papa!
I've been getting ready for retirement during the day, and giggin' during the evenings. I haven't been checking in with Congaplace! Ooops!

In anycase Abure +pablo+, here is a website that I ordered my XLR Male recepticles from:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MXLRPanelCon/

Suerte!
Onile!

[jorge]

This idea of putting the mic inside the drum sounds very interesting. It would be much quicker and easier to set up, looks cool, and eliminates some of the mic stands that clutter up the stage. I am just wondering how your drum sounds with the internal mic.
Today, I tried playing my Skin on Skin wood conga with a mic inside (on a small mic stand), and could not get it to sound right. Listening through a mixer preamp and headphones, the tones sounded ok, but every slap produced a ringing echo. The bass had an unnatural echo and the personal timing hand sounds were exaggerated. I tried different mics (SM57, CAD kick drum mic, Earthworks TC30 omni), and all kinds of EQ settings on the mixer, but could not get a natural conga sound. Then I tried putting acoustic damping material (polyester batting) inside, which did help some. Maybe if I get more and keep stuffing the drum until it sound right? Also, it may work better with the mic located closer to the skin. Today, mine was about halfway up from the bottom of the drum, which theoretically would tend to exaggerate the echo sound. Maybe I will try to use a taller short mic stand to hold the mic right up underneath the skin and see if that sounds better.

+Pablo+, have you found a way to make your drums sound natural with the internal mic?



Edited By jorge on 1163892788

[Diceman]

Gents,

I would be very interested. I have tried the same and had the same result as Jorge. I used a mike on a short stand up inside the congas on stands and couldnt find a sweet spot inside the drum where all stokes sounded good. Echo and other sounds where exaggerated so much that it got confusing and I am sticking to my trusty E304 clip ons for the time being.
I guess it is a combination of type of mic, position, type of drum, type of skin etc etc. and would be interested in your testing.
Pablo, you could be on to a great idea if you can crack the sound quality problems.
Good luck mon ami

Suave
Diceman

[onile]

Alafia Abures!
I hope that you are all well and in an abundance of blessings!

I too have taken Abure +pablo+s idea to heart and have rigged an internal mic into my 3 Patato Model tumbas. I have also anticipated the sound dynamics given that at least two of the drums will not be 'tilted', which would in my estimation, create a sound chamber with very little sound escaping. The mic will capture every essence of sound and therefore will more than likely require one to use even greater technique in one's attack.

Basically, I'll have to adjust the sound levels and mix down to get as natural a sound as preferred, then I'll also have to consider the amount of attack on either two drums. The mic's that I am going to use are Sennheiser E-604s, the mics will also be as close as 1.5 to 2" from the playing surface of the skin. I'm still waitng for my 'flush mounted XLR recepticles" to complete my project, but I'm gonna proceed with it. I've taken pictures of each step, as did our brother +pablo+, and I'll post them as soon as I can get a photo editor program. I seem to have lost mine with new software from MS.

In either case my brothers, your concerns are valid ones, and I'm sure that as soon as Abure +pablo+ and I get to pounding out the mix/sound we'll each post our findings!

Suave!
Onile!

[jorge]

Saludos mi hermano Onile,
I hope you are well, and I have always been impressed by the positive attitude in your posts!
This is a very interesting idea, and I am glad to see you are experimenting with it and looking (listening) for a solution.
Here are some of the many variables involved that affect the sound, the most important first, in my view -

Distance from the skin and walls of the drum
Absorption / echo of sound inside drum
Tuning of drum
Drum tilted or not
Type of mic
Type of skin
Whether you will use EQ or effects (eg reverb)
Sound damping of attachment of mic to drum
Size and type of drum

Let me make a few suggestions for your experiments.
1. If at all possible, record the sound for each variation you make, and keep careful notes about the exact setup. It is much easier to hear A/B changes in recorded sound than to hear changes while you are playing.
2. Start with one drum to experiment, for each change play the same exact BRIEF pattern that includes all the sounds you use (eg tres-dos part to Havana guaguanco, or basic tumbao).
3. Vary only 1 variable at a time, or you won't know which one made the change in sound
4. Tune your drum where you like it, then leave it and experiment with the most easily modified variables first (eg, mic distance from skin, acoustic damping material insided drum, tilting the drum)
5. I would start with a standard mic that you normally use and know how it sounds, eg SM57 or e604.
6. Rig up some kind of temporary mic mounting system that lets you try many different positions of the mic, before you settle on a specific location or drill any holes.

Sigue pa'lante y buena suerte. Let us know what you find in your experiments, and any questions that come up while you are experimenting.

Paz y Ache,

Jorge



Edited By jorge on 1163952971

[onile]

Pa'lante Mi hermano Jorge!
Thanks for the kind words my brother!

Great insight and suggestions to consider, especially the idea of examining the sound BEFORE drilling any holes! Chacho! it would be a shame to have already drilled the holes and not be satisfied with the actual sound produced!

Mil gracias mi Pana! I always use the E-604s for mic'ing!

What I used for the internal mic'ing mounts are "satellite speaker" mounts. They are made of resigned plastic (hard plastic) and have joint connections which are tightened with a "hex" nut. The actual mounts fit right along the current bolts in place for the 'sideplates' (LP Hearts). So far, I have not made any holes or drilled anything. I will mount the E-604s and put the heads back on them to test the sound before considering drilling the 'flushmount' recepticles.

Thanks my brother!

La bendicion!

Onile!



Edited By onile on 1163956357

[+pablo+]

Jorge, thanks for taking the time organizing a ‘plan of attack’ for getting the quality/timbre from a mic. In regards to “much easier to hear A/B changes in recorded sound than to hear changes while you are playing,” that is so true. My son pointed out that I need to record the sound as opposed to judging it from a monitor/speaker. The problem being that through a monitor, one hears both the sound directly from the drum as well as the monitor; The ‘audience’ in the back of the house only hears the sound through the speaker and is what they will judge you by.

When you were experimenting with a short stand, it appears that it is too far away from the head. To get the mic to respond, the gain has to be turned up, which then leads to problems like echoing (from my experience). I think it needs to be around 2-4 inches from the head.

What I did for early experiments was to extend the height of my short stand by slipping a cut a length of PVC pipe over the mic rod. This was a podium style stand that has a small base that the drum bottom can fit over. Then I just tapped the mic to the other end. All temporary to play around with mic to head location. Hope that made sense! Think about it for a sec. PVC is cheap and easy to cut. Break out the Duc tape. You can also rig up a board with a hole drilled for the pipe. Slip a pole/mic at the height your messin’ with. Place the drum over the pole/board…experiment…cut the pole shorter…make a longer one, etc.

Regards, +pablo+

[jorge]

Saludos +pablo+ y Onile,
I think you are right about the mic having to be close to the skin so the main sound that you want is louder than the echo that you don't want. Good ideas for rigging a temporary mic stand to adjust the height.
I am wondering if you can get away with using the same bolts that hold the lug plates to also mount the mic, rather than drilling more holes in the shell. You can get the same thread and diameter bolts but an inch or so longer. Put the bolt, your washer, and one nut on to hold the lug plate, tighten it up, then put the mic mounting block over that with another nut to hold that, and either loctite or elastic stop nuts to keep the nut from loosening with vibration. Do the same with the other lug mounting bolt. You will need to loosen the skin before you change the lug mounting bolts.
Also, I put some polyester batting inside the drum to kill some of the echo, and it helped the sound. You can experiment with location and amount of sound dampening material and see how it changes the sound the mic picks up. I have also used foam and it worked ok as well. I used the kind of foam you put under a carpet, but any relatively dense open cell foam should work.
Onile, to avoid drilling the drum, you could pass a mic cable out one of the handle holes, and solder an XLRM plug onto it to connect to the preamp. Once you have your design perfected, then drill the hole. Also, I have found that when the mic is too rigidly mounted to the conga, it picks up noise from the shell every time my hand hits. It probably won't be an issue, but if it does turn out to be a problem, you might use a softer rubber block, that would isolate the vibration better.
Dejanos saber como suena!
Paz y aché,
Jorge



Edited By jorge on 1164174252

[+pablo+]

hola Onile! I'm pretty sure you caught this, but the flush connector picture you posted was a 'female'. The link you posted was the 'male', which is what you need. Just wanted to clarify this for everyone. Yea, stick with the Neutrik (found mine at Guitar Center). The Radio Shack one is cheaper quality. When I was soldering the wires, the RS melted slightly. The Neutrik plastic around the pins seem to handle more heat. Also, looks like you'll need to solder the wires to the flush mount (not a plug and play). No big deal. If you want me to post lessons learned on soldering let me know. +pablo+

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... onnect.jpg

[+pablo+]

Was at a friend’s studio last night to test out the mics. Jammed with a drum kit, so this was a pretty good test on getting heard (as we all know, a kit will drown out/overcome congas in a sec). ps: I’z play seated so the tumba is flat and the conga is tilted…or flat at times…

The tumba sounded good. Some overtones, but I like a little overtone because to my ear it projects the drum sound better. Kinda like timbales, where they ring, but with ‘accompaniment’ sound good.

For the conga, the mic sounded too distant/weak. Like when a mic (external) is too far from the drum, or when you use one mic for two drums. Recall that when I installed the mic to the rubber block, it was centered on the block, thus the mics ended up 4 ½ inches from the head. I think this is too far. I’m using Peavey drum mics, which for a kit are normally set at 2 inches from the head. I am going to move them closer to have a final distance of around 3 inches. (Onile mentioned setting up at 1.5 to 2 inches).

Not quite sure how to do this since the mic mount would be sitting right over the rubber block attach bolt (the upper handle location). Maybe cut a triangular block and have the mount to the side….workin’ on it…

On last thing, I found the quality of sound coming through the mic was not affected by having the drum tilted or flat…for both the conga and tumba.

[+pablo+]

shutup already!...

But seriously, jorge, I have some extra rubber left. I can cut you some blocks. No charge, just shipping...+pablo+

[+pablo+]

Not Again!!!

one thing i gotta add...playin' amplified without having those black cigar lookin' things dangling in front of your drums is a gas!!!



Edited By +pablo+ on 1164213843

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... racket.jpg

[onile]

Alafia Abures!
Espero que todo este bien con todos!

I put my "internal micing" on hold for now. I connected them and since I have a PA system, tried to work with the sound. Brothers, I'm not the best sound man by no means, but I was hurtin'! The echo within the drum was unbearable to say the least!

I used my E-604s and had them at first, about 1" from the skin dead center, that point sucked. Then I placed them about 2.5" down from the heads and still echo without resolve. I don't know if it's because they are fiberglass (Patatos), or I am just doing something wrong, but I decided before I go drilling holes to put the flush mount connectors, I would rather get more input from you all who may have more understanding about the mechanations of this stuff.

Abure +pablo+, you're right, the previous pic I had posted was female and the one I actually ordered was male (the correct one).

Good luck on the sound mixing my brother!

Suave!
Onile!



Edited By onile on 1164333908

[Diceman]

Brother Onile,

If you dont know the difference between male and female by now, you have been missing out on a whole lotta fun !!
Just kiddin'

It is fantastic that someone is taking the time to solve the age old problem of micing up tubs, keep up the journey brothers, you could reduce the hand damage of many drummers.

suave
Diceman