Has anyone actual experience installing almas?

[BMac]

Bongosnotbombs,

It's all good! We're just discussing!

The point I was trying to make is that I believe almas and bands are intended to serve different functions.
If these things provide their benefits, they can each provide their benefit without the other.

An alma can help preserve shape without an outer band, and an outer band can help prevent stave separation without an alma.

What about this part of my post?:
So let's say you stretch a conga edge at 12 and 6 o'clock (pulling diametrically outward) ... well an alma will counter by preventing the drum from squeezing at 3 and 9 o'clock.

Whether or not you have an alma, try this experiment if you dare. I have. Take the head off of a conga and squeeze it one one axis ... you'll see it expands on a perpendicular axis. You don't have to believe me ... it's true. Try it. Don't try it on your most cherished undamaged conga.

Based on this observation, I don't believe that almas are limited to countering internal deformation (radial squeezing). An alma is intended to counter all deformations. Returning to my experiment, if an alma were present to prevent the conga from squeezing on the first axis, the expansion on the perpendicular axis would also be prevented. Get it?

I also believe that drum shape is much more variable than the measurement of the periphery (circumference). I've measured as much as a 3/16 inch fluctuation in edge diameter in an out-of-round conga and I just don't believe that the circumference of a conga changes that much (without developing a major crack).

Cheers,
BMac

[Tonio]

I've talked to Mario (Isla) about the alma issue. His reply was : Why would I want to put a cowbell in a conga? I replied, ah , so it makes the drum ring eh? Mario says: and there you go. But SOS , Jr etc don't ring. His reply was, that you don't need extra stuff to hold it together with carved staves and/or with modern glue techniques.

I agree that it may have been a means for a construction aid in the past and part of me thinks its more of an old school mentality of building congas due to the glue used?. But Matt, and Jay still uses alma's even with modern glueing techniques.

Matt seems to have a serious quanity of jigs for the essembly/curring process. Mario , on the other hand only used 3 or 4 steel circular (thick) rings. Mind you Mario carves the staves, and Jay , Matt bends the staves (excluding the african mahoganey according to James).

Ever see old SOS, the belly is the 1st place to see the splitting at the glue joints.

Thing is, I've seen alma installed congas go out of round, so WTF?

I need to talk w/ Jay about my order, so hopefully I will get a conclusive answer to why almas are installed.

T

[bongosnotbombs]

Whether or not you have an alma, try this experiment if you dare. I have. Take the head off of a conga and squeeze it one one axis ... you'll see it expands on a perpendicular axis. You don't have to believe me ... it's true. Try it. Don't try it on your most cherished undamaged conga.

Based on this observation, I don't believe that almas are limited to countering internal deformation (radial squeezing). An alma is intended to counter all deformations. Returning to my experiment, if an alma were present to prevent the conga from squeezing on the first axis, the expansion on the perpendicular axis would also be prevented. Get it?

Try a different experiment, try pulling on 2 ends of the conga rim.

[BMac]

Michel Oulet carves the staves for Moperc congas as well ... and ... no almas. He has told me that his outer bands are for decoration for those that want them.

But while we're querying makers, I like to keep this in mind:
Craftsmen sometimes know more about what they do than they know about why they do what they do.
Sometimes they've settled upon their ways of doing things without isolating every cause and effect relationship.

So now we have this assertion that an alma causes ringing ... an assertion from a respected drum maker.
I take this as a thought to ponder, but I don't readily take up that conclusion.
Quite frankly, if the maker hasn't installed an alma, heard ringing, then taken out the alma from the same drum and found the ringing to be relieved ... then maybe the maker is sharing his belief but not necessarily his knowledge. Even if he has done that experiment, the result might not be the same for other drums.

Sure, I'm the guy saying almas aren't needed, but now I'm also saying that craftsmen sometimes don't know as much as they profess when it comes to cause-and-effect relationships. The maker you contacted says he doesn't install almas ... I accept that as fact. He also says almas cause ringing ... hmm ... I don't readily accept that as fact.

There's the old story about the caterpillar don't you know ... you know the one ... an ant asks the caterpillar how he keeps all his legs moving in concert to produce walking motion ... the caterpillar scratches his head, says "I don't know" ... and never walks again.


One maker can best tell you how he makes his drums, and from there his drums do their own talking as to whether his whole process and construction works well ... but asking one maker what's wrong about other drums is not necessarily where his authority lies.

Cheers,
BMac

[BMac]

Bongosnotbombs says:
"staves are sections that can move, expand, compress and contract independently from each other"

But that's only true if they've separated. So long as each stave is still attached to its two nearest neighbors, the drum is intact, and no stave is independent of the others. As each "moves," it affects the whole drum. The shape of the drum is more variable than its circumference as environmental changes and age affect the drum. So as an alma prevents any one area of the drum from flexing inward, at the same time that simultaneously prevents some other area of the drum from flexing outward, so long as the alma is rigid and says put, and whether or not the alma is attached to every stave ... the drum stays round. So goes the alma theory. It's not my theory, but I believe it is the popular theory.

I'll put my understanding of the popular theory in its simplest possible terms, and leave it at that.

A typical alma is intended to keep the drum round.
A typical outer band is intended to keep the staves together.

Cheers,
BMac

[burke]

So I wrote to the gentleman (Aaron Spalding - some of you may know him) who actually refurbished the two Marano Series GB's (including installing almas) and asked the 'how' question. When he answered I asked if I could share with the forum and he agreed. Here is his first reply:

"Hey there,
Glad you are enjoying the drums. If you want to check out the file I posted when I redid your drums go to the yahoo group CongaClub, go to the files section and check out the fixing an out of round quinto. It shows all the steps I did to fix the drum you have including installing the alma. As far as steel I use 3/16 thick 1/2 inch wide for almas. If you can find someone with a ring roller to make the circle and have them weld it that is best, if not try to find a metal shop that will make the most round ring for you as possible. The second time I installed almas I had them made just a little big and sanded a nice flat surface into the inside of the drum for the alma to make as much contact as possible.
Aaron"

Here is his reply after I asked if I could post:

"That would be fine and feel free to post the word files anywhere. I spent a lot of time researching almas with little bits of info before I was able to get it going so I would be happy for that info to get out there.
Aaron"

And here is the file from CongaClub sans photos:
[Very cool seeing a drum I own being re-born and I learned some great stuff about the finish. Also although this only shows one of the drums I bought - both have almas. Finally, although Aaron calls it a quinto, at the time this was considered a conga by GB and the larger one a 'large conga' - learned this shortly after I bought them and shared the serial numbers on the forum)

"I got a nice pair of Gon Bops Mahogany congas Quinto, Conga off of ebay for a good price but the Quinto was badly out of round. I decided to try to fix it.

I cut a form out of plywood, soaked the top of the drum for about four hours and forced it into the circle. I let the drum sit for a week to dry. After sitting for the week the cracks that had been there before were a bit more present. First I knocked off the original glue that was loose. I then drilled small holes along the crack about ½ inch deep about every inch. Using Gorilla glue I glued all of the cracks squeezing extra glue into each drilled hole. I let the glue dry for a day.

I then went through and sanded off any extra glue. I fiberglassed the inside of the drum using one layer of cloth and two layers of epoxy. After the fiberglass had dried for a couple days I installed the Alma, using three wood screws to hold the Alma in place and then anchored the Alma with bolts.

I then gave it a couple coats of MinWax rub on stain and oil. After doing a fine sanding I then gave it a final coat of tung oil. After drying for a few days I then put on a medium thickness cow head. The drum is now perfectly round and sounds and looks great.

Materials I got for drum.
Cow Skin from Bill Confer at Tejas Industries, Phone # 1-866-660-2830
Alma was made for me by Shorty Palmer at www.goatskins.com
The rest of the materials were bought at local hardware stores.

The information from the conga club email group was very helpful.

The email from Dario explaining the method of Alfredo Farach’s method of reforming the drum with the plywood form and installing the alma was especially helpful in getting the idea into my head to do this and how.

Andrew Christian’s email about fiberglassing the drum also convinced me to give the drum some extra reinforcement. Although I obviously disagreed with the idea of not getting the drum back in round I have much more confidence in the drum with the fiberglass.

I also got information about fiberglassing bongos off of the website www.bongomania.com written by Matthew Dubuque.

Aaron Spalding
www.custommarimba.com"

-------------

now let the alma debate continue - have fun boys!

[bongosnotbombs]

But that's only true if they've separated.

That is not accurate, the staves can move outwardly without separation.

[BMac]

For those without the patience to read the raging debate between Bongosnotbombs and myself, I'll summarize:
BMac: Uh-huh!
BnotB: Uh-uh!
BMac: Did so!
BnotB: Did not!
BMac: Tastes Great!
BnotB: Less Filling!
and so on ...

Now the question for Burke is this:
Do you prefer an alma with only a few attachments points like the SoS example? (see the four wood screws)
or ...
Do you prefer an alma attached to every stave like the Raul example? (see a rivet in every stave and see the generously applied bonding material)

Believe it or not, this question drives at the essence of the BMac-Vs.-BnotB debate.
Do you see why?

Cheers,
BMac

[Mike]

For those without the patience to read the raging debate between Bongosnotbombs and myself, I'll summarize:
BMac: Uh-huh!
BnotB: Uh-uh!
BMac: Did so!
BnotB: Did not!
BMac: Tastes Great!
BnotB: Less Filling!
and so on ...

[Tonio]

[burke]

Well ... since the almas installed by Aaron on my other GB's back 3 years ago have neither, rang like cowbells, buzzed, deformed, buckled, fell out, exploded, started a communist uprising or called my mother ugly ... I guess I'll do what he did (three screws and 3 bolts). That more or less splits the difference between the two methods I believe. This still does still somewhat depend on what I see when I actually get the drum and see how rough/smooth/round the inner surface is - Ie: I may do some sanding of high spots to get max contact - or I may not - depends how I feel that day.

Of course (and I know this is pure madness) what nobody has mentioned is the possibility of removing the alma should it not work out for some reason (GASP!!!!!).

Now I must get back to working under my car on the steep hill I left it on, precariously balanced on a fully extended jack with no blocks and the emergency brake off.

Toodles

D

[burke]

"Believe it or not, this question drives at the essence of the BMac-Vs.-BnotB debate.
Do you see why?"
----------------------------------
I didn't answer that did I?

I did understand it more or less when I read it - now I've kind of forgotten and I probabily won't re-read it... because ... well ... just because.