Has anyone actual experience installing almas?

[burke]

I'm taking the liberty of cutting and pasting a question from Psych1 from another topic because it is exactly what I too am after for almost the exact same reason.

"How do I go about installing an alma on one of my old, but still round after 40 years, Gon Bops? What kind and size of metal? Exactly where and how do you place and attach it?"

My other GB's have almas and I can basically see how its done but - I'd really love to hear from someone who has actually done it - preferably sucessfully

Speculation is always welcome too... and I also know some don't beleive in almas - feel free to tell me about that - I''ll likely do it anyhoo - but by all means...

ps - googled like mad but there isn't anything I could find on the net (there is a bit - [but just a teeze] if you search the forum).

D

[bongosnotbombs]

I suggest calling either Matt Smith or Jay Bereck (or call them both).
These are the drum makers that are putting almas in their drums nowadays.
Maybe they will be willing to give you some advice.

I'm curious why you are going through the trouble fixing a drum that isn't broken?

[Psych1]

Thank you Burke for bringing the question back - I never did get an answer.

I've also got a great old tack-head from the 40's, still perfectly round. I don't play it often - when I do I tune it with a heat lamp. I finally decided to fit new hardware and put an alma on it and contacted Matt Smith who gave me a very good price estimate to do the work - about what the shipping cost back and forth would be. But I reconsidered because as BNB said - it ain't broke so why fix it? And, if I try to fix that classic, that really belongs in a musuem, I might end up breaking it.

[burke]

Cause I agree with some of the other members that almas are a good idea. Plus my other Gon Bops have almas now. Not fixing - improving. Why modify anything? If I have a functioning car why install better brakes than came from the factory? Or change the handle bars on my bike for ones that I think are better quality or ...(one could go on forever).

[bongosnotbombs]

Well I could see if the alma made this 40 year old GB more round, last longer or sound better,
that would be an improvement, higher performance.

Your other Gon Bops have almas; were they made like that or were those modifications done
by previous owners? I've been over a lot of Gon Bops of different years and models and have not
seen any with almas myself.

[burke]

Refinished with almas by the guy I bought them from ... but honestly, I'm just not really after an alma merit debate - no disrespect - I'll bow out on that topic OK? Just asking if anyone has done it themselves and how they went about it.

[look at all the smiley faces!!!]

D

[BMac]

I found some pictures of an installed alma, and a description of how that alma is attached to its drum. The writer does seem to think his example is unconventional, but I can't speak on that. Look pretty far down in the blog and you'll find the pictures and descriptions.

http://congadr.blogspot.com/2008_07_01_archive.html

I can find you some literature about Don Quixote if you want to go fight some windmills too my friend.

Now don't take offense, I see the O.P. wants to set the alma debate aside and just get some info on mechanics. I couldn't help myself. I did bring some content to the table so please accept my Don Quixote remarks with humor as I intended.

The only alma I have has buckled a bit inside the drum, it has a separated kink area that points inward to the center and away from the shell. The bonding material (looks like glue or epoxy) has clearly failed almost all the way around the drum, and so now only little wood screws keep the alma attached to the shell. The alma in this case is a simple band of metal, looks like cold rolled steel, about 1/8 inch thick and about 1/2 inch wide.

Although I think almas aren't needed, I too am interested in all things related to conga mechanics, so I'm bumping this thread and hope to see more content.

Specifically, does anyone have any thoughts on the thermal expansion property differences between wood and metal? If the alma is to support the wood in adverse conditions, isn't any bonding material likely to fail under thermal cycling?

And those bloody dumb looking annular wood almas ... what's up with that? They look like plywood disks with holes in the centers, like flat doughnuts, and are attached at their outer peripheries near the upper ends of their drums. Are they attached at the edge level or just below? I can't tell from photos looking up into the drums. If such an alma is attached below the edge it forms an extra chamber within the conga just below the head ... what does this do to the sound of the drum? If such an alma is attached at the edge, the skin is gonna slap against the alma as the drum is played. Are these annular almas found only on el-cheapo ornamental drums made for tourists? That's what I suspect. I think they're basically internal assembly jigs that hold the staves in place as the drum is assembled. Uh-oh, I've just now formed a theory that all almas might just be assembly jigs that aren't needed once the glue is dry ... but that's another debate. I will say that when I've assembled my own hand made staved drums, final assembly has been tricky and an internal support ring (shhh ... "alma") would have made things a little easier.

In any event, as the O.P. requests, let's discuss alma mechanics and such here ... we all have our views on how silly almas are already ... we're past that.

Cheers,
BMac

[burke]

Bmac - thanks for that link!

I also fly kites in thunderstorms and scratch my head with a drill while its still running ...so happily I probably won't pass on my defective 'alma' gene!

[bongosnotbombs]

Some photos I just took of the alma inside my cherry wood Skin on Skin tumba.
Maybe some information there you can use.

[bongosnotbombs]

one more

[burke]

Thanks BSB.

I also wrote to the guy who refurbished the set I bought in 2006 to see if he'd share info/experience - if I get anything useful I'll post it.

d

[BMac]

Well somebody's gotta be the master of the obvious here ... so I'll jump on the grenade.

Here's what I see in those recent pics:

That alma looks like cold rolled steel.
3/4 to 1 inch wide.
1/8 to 3/16 thick.
A single piece of flat stock was rolled to the desired diameter and welded.
Don't mind the ugly weld, it's inside the drum and can't be seen.
The shell side of the weld was probably ground/sanded flat ... so again, don't mind the ugly weld.
This alma was simply rolled without taper, so all the difficulties in making a tapered ring as discussed in other threads about outside bands don't apply to this alma.
It appears to be attached to the drum by four wood screws without other bonding.
I don't think the inside of the shell was notched to mate with the alma ... but I could be wrong.
But it looks to me like only the top of the alma touches the wood.
So the contact area where the alma is to allegedly maintain the roundness of the drum is a fine circle of contact at the top of the alma along its outside edge, maybe that edge was beveled before installation to increase the contact area ... I can't tell.
It seems to me that alma is intended to float a bit.
It's not achored to the shell at every stave like the alma in the pictures that I found in the blog (the link I provided in my post above).
If the alma floats a bit, without any bonding and only attached at four points around the diameter, perhaps the drum and alma can breathe a bit together as slight fluctuations in the dimensions of each vary with temperature (of course the wood might vary with humidity too).
So, if I understand what I'm seeing, the alma is present to allegedly counter forces tending to put the drum out of round but it doesn't bind and grind on every stave when minor fluctuations occur.
This alma was not likely used as an assembly jig as I suggested in my post above ... this alma was most likely secured after the shell was assembled and the glue was long dry.
But, was the alma at least placed in the drum as the drum was assembled?
If not, how did the alma ever get into the drum?

So the alma in these pics is entirely different from the one in the blog pics in the link I provided earlier. In the blog pics, the alma looks mated against the shell very intimately with either the alma formed with taper or the shell notched out to receive the alma. And, with the alma in the blog pics, every stave is "riveted" to the alma. You can see little connectors (reportedly "rivets") attached to the alma at every stave, and you can see corresponding indications along the outside of the shell. Look closely at the pics of the drum in the blog and you can see every stave was drilled all the way through but I can't make out whether the holes were filled with filler or dowels or whether some portion of each connector reaches the outside surface of the shell. The alma in the blog might have been useful as an assembly jig that held the staves as the drum was assembled ... I don't know.

Well that's what I see in these two alma examples.

Maybe an experienced conga maker will join this dicussion and clear some of this up ... or maybe it's just us making guesses.

Cheers,
BMac

[bongosnotbombs]

The Raul Alma is clearly not tapered, in this picture of it you can easily see the gap between the
wood and the alma, you can even see the "pins" as they pass through the gap and into the staves.
To me it looks installed exactly the same way except with pins at each stave instead of 4 screws. The pins
don't even seem to have threads. On the top of the alma there is all that bondo formed over the
top of it. The bondo would not actually fasten the alma to the drum at all, I think it's function there
is as a kind of 2 alma, but that's just speculation. The bondo was certainly placed there after the alma
was installed as it is formed over the top of it

Without an exterior metal band the whole idea behind having an alma is ruined IMHO. Assuming the wood and
glue is not enough to prevent the drum from deforming, mechanical features are installed; almas and bands. An exterior
band prevents deformation outward and the alma is meant to counter deformation inwards.

I know both the writer of that blog and the current owner of these drums, maybe I'll be able to take a closer
look.

[BMac]

Bongosnotbombs,

Good eye. I agree, the alma on the Raul is not likely tapered for the reason you say (one can see the pins).
I missed that.

I disagree though that an internal alma could only counter inward deformation.
I think the makers intend the almas to counter all deformations.
Assuming the wood doesn't split, a drums upper circumference will be essentially the same as round shapes and egg shapes are assumed.
For one area along the top of the drum to deform outward, another must deform inward (or the dum must split) ... thus an inner alma would counter outward deformation by countering inward deformation so as to counter both at the same time.
So let's say you stretch a conga edge at 12 and 6 o'clock (pulling diametrically outward) ... well an alma will counter by preventing the drum from squeezing at 3 and 9 o'clock.

I think that almas and outer bands are intended to do separate jobs altogether where both are applied.
I think the almas are intended to counter all deformation, and the outer bands are intended to simply hold the staves together.
So long as the drum stays in one piece, a rigid alma is intended to maintain a circular shape.
Perhaps the alma needn't be attached to every stave ... it just needs to stay in place ... so a few attachment points will do.
An alma needs to be rigid to keep its shape and to therefore keep the drum in shape.
The outer bands need only hold tension to keep the staves together ... so they can be made of thin bands of material.
Thus we see thick almas and thin outer bands.

Now with that Raul alma (the blog pics in the link I first provided and recently posted here by you), both jobs are done.
The thick alma provides rigidity to maintain the shape, and is attached to every stave to hold the drum together.

That's what I'm getting out of this. But I still say my Mopercs just don't need almas or bands ... so there!

I've seen some suggestions that some makers just don't want to take the time to make and install almas. I don't believe that of the better makers. I believe they're using their judgment and have come to their own conclusions. I truly believe that if Michel Oulet thought congas needed these things, there would be almas and bands on every Moperc. He makes his own hardware and tuning wrenches. The dude could make an alma if he wanted and he told me himself that he believes his outer bands are for show. But that's getting back to the old debate ... and we're talking alma mechanics here ...

I agree that Raul alma ain't tapered though. I wonder if any almas are tapered or are otherwise formed to mate closely with the inner surfaces of their drums. I wonder if any drum shells are internally lathed, notched or rabbited to receive their almas. After all, many congas are externally lathed to recieve their outer bands.

Cheers,
BMac

[bongosnotbombs]

I disagree though that an internal alma could only counter inward deformation.
I think the makers intend the almas to counter all deformations.
Assuming the wood doesn't split, a drums upper circumference will be essentially the same as round shapes and egg shapes are assumed.
For one area along the top of the drum to deform outward, another must deform inward (or the dum must split) ... thus an inner alma would counter outward deformation by countering inward deformation so as to counter both at the same time.
So let's say you stretch a conga edge at 12 and 6 o'clock (pulling diametrically outward) ... well an alma will counter by preventing the drum from squeezing at 3 and 9 o'clock.

I'm sorry I don't mean to continuously contradict you BMac, but this statement above is not accurate. What you describe would be true if the conga
was a single piece of wood, or a membrane, but most congas are not, the staves are sections that can move, expand, compress and contract independently from each other.
A split is also a form of deformation, and is usually a result of an outward deformation, but as the wood of the staves can also expand, contract and be compressed, a split does
not necessarily need to form due to outward deformation.