CURRENT CUSTOM CONGA PRICES????

[Thebreeze]

I thought I would just start this thread to see if anyone has any input on what the current prices for custom congas are these days. In speaking to a close friend today about it he has heard that some makers like S.O.S., Matt Smith just to name a couple have recently raised their prices and I am wondering is this because of the increase in materials, labor, etc, or are prices going up like the way Gas Stations do?? I don't know what it would cost these days for a S.O.S. or Matt Smith, or Moperc, PM Percussion, or Manito, HR Congas, etc.... I am of the opinion that if prices for Custom made drums keep going up that most people with this economy will not be able to afford them and will be forced to go with the original staple of drums that most of us have had or still do....LP Classics or equivalent.

If any one can share on what the prices are these days, or have other thoughts please share them ok? I think it's about time we look at this a little bit. I have never bought a new set of Custom Congas from any maker except a set of Valjes back in the 70's when they were under 200 dollars each, and I have bought some used by private party or traded for some so some of you that have actually spent the top dollars would be welcomed to add your comments .

Thanks guys.
Will Perez, ( Thebreeze )

[pcastag]

750-1100

[Jaisen Torres]

I agree 100 % , the cost of drums has really got out of hand .
This thread is so overdue. Will excellent thread , I wana see how many people will comment..
Dont be afraid ...

[apollo]

could it possibly be just like what happens to all the mom and pop shops in America? State and local will tax and regulate the small business to death, and health insurance (holy cow) so the cost must be passed on to the consumer? Please... I'm not wishing any bad luck on anyone but we all know how this story ends......The consumer too is on a tight budget and has to turn to the big box chain store if wants what he wants with what little funds he has. Then the next time you drive by that little shop it will be a Star bucks, although there is always the exception.

[jorge]

No, I think we are framing this question the wrong way, it is not about the custom conga makers at all. If you account for cost of materials, shipping materials, rent/mortgage for the workshop, accounting and office assistance, woodworking machinery and tools, welding machinery and tools, chrome plating costs, light, heat and power for the workshop, warehouse storage space, proper ventilation and respiratory protection in the workshop, medical insurance coverage for the craftsmen/women and administrative employee(s), liability insurance, fire/theft/flood/damage insurance for the physical facility and contents, telephone/internet/website costs, shipping of the finished drums, and the many other "little" costs of producing congas by hand, the $750 to $1000 per drum translates into maybe a couple hundred dollars left over to pay the craftsmen/women for making the drum. I used to argue this with Jay, telling him he should raise his prices or he would never make ends meet (then $325 for an oak conga with stainless bands and chrome hardware) and his argument was that the economic base of those who buy congas was just not strong enough to support higher prices. I asked him how much of his time it took to make one conga, he said he made about one oak conga a week on average working by himself, more when he had a helper. He stuck to his guns and refused to raise prices for many years after that. That was over 30 years ago but even at today's prices, how many of us would work a 50-60 hour week for $200 or $300? And making oak congas is seriously hard work, not to mention having to set aside time to argue with customers about all kinds of stupid things. Handmade congas are one of the few remaining items that are made here in the US and not outsourced overseas to be made by semi-slave labor in mass production factories by workers who know nothing about clave, rumba, salsa, timba, aña or ibiono, or even how to hit a drum to get a good sound. Not to mention how to pick a skin that will sound good on a particular drum. Junior (RIP), Jay and Matt all probably made/make less per year than most of us. Martin C is another story, but I wouldn't call those custom or handmade congas, and he does not make the drums himself even when he owned LP. Some of the drum dealers on this forum probably make more re-selling used drums than the guys made who actually built the drums.

I am not defending selling old custom congas at new custom conga prices. Selling "vintage" drums that cost under $150 when new at current day prices of $500-$1500 each is legal and can be highly profitable (per hour of time invested) but do you really want to pay that kind of money for a 30 year old drum with the glue decomposing in the joints that won't last as long as a recently produced drum? You are paying a lot just for the sentimental and "bragging" value of the name, and to some degree the "sound" that depends more on the skin and your technique than the drum. When it comes to function and longevity, the new handmade drums are generally a better deal.

My point here is that the cost of new handmade congas actually is not outrageous at all when you break it down. What IS outrageous is the economic system of this country that turning middle class people into poor people while the very few super rich become even richer faster than ever before. Most of us pay a ton of extra taxes to make up for the fact that huge corporations avoid paying their fair share of taxes by setting up tax shelters offshore and other unpatriotic, dishonest and outright fraudulent schemes. There is a single five story building in the Cayman Islands that is the financial headquarters for over 18,000 corporations. Corporate profits are at an all time high while more and more people we know are underemployed, unemployed or seriously underpaid. Good jobs are harder and harder to find while working conditions are rapidly getting worse and pay is going down even before you consider inflation. About one quarter of the largest corporations in this country pay no federal income tax at all, shifting their tax burdens to you and me. For example, US Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont has estimated that Apple, an exemplary "American" company that produces its iPhones, iPads, iPods and most of its other products in China, has "saved" $2.4 billion in federal taxes in 2011 alone by keeping much of its revenue overseas and slashing labor costs by using offshore production facilities with dubious labor and health and safety practices at best. And Apple is one of the least bad corporations. If, as the supreme court has judged, corporations are people too, then why should we continue to give them more welfare dollars per year than we have given all the welfare mothers in the history of welfare?

You are blaming the messenger, re-think this issue.

[bongosnotbombs]

I have paid top dollar for Isla, Skin on Skin, Gon Bop and Resolution drums. Prices are somewhere between $600-$750 a drum, depending on the sale or the deal you can work out. I've also bought used LP's and used vintage congas like Valje and Gon Bop. I would buy these hand made drums again, gladly. In my opinion, handmade congas are cheap compared to other instruments that are hand made in America, like a trumpet, or a saxophone, or even snare drums.

Do I need drums from these guys? No, I'm sure I could have gotten where I am at as a musician with off the shelf LP's. I want drums made in America by these craftsmen. Why? Because I enjoy them more and because I want to support these guys. I want to give them my business and that means paying more. They just cannot afford to sell their drums at the same prices as LP with their automated overseas factories and massive distribution system and advertising and promotion departments.

Volcanos are a great target for this criticism. Probably the most expensive of the hand made American congas. However there is a lot of extra work put into Volcanoes drums. Polished stainless steel, that system of pegs that are used to attached the staves, etc, that is a lot of extra labor. When I specify custom cabinets in a building project, I know the price is going to be a lot more than if I specify off the shelf cabinets from Home Depot.

And I think that's a good comparison and summarizes my opinion pretty well.

[pcastag]

Wow Jorge. Not that I disagree with you but I'm really not sure what that has to do with the price of custom drums. Two major things that have driven up the price recently

!. Raw materials. Ask any of the guys and they will tell you the cost of wood has risen dramatically, especially the good stuff.
2. Labor. What is the hourly wage in the thailand factory? Must be darn cheap if LP and other companies find it cheaper to ship north american ash halfway around the world to have it turned into Giovannis!

Me personally I like the custom drums the best, they sound the best, they support local artisans AND they look killer. To me there are three big ones, Moperc, Skin on Skin and Ritmo, the two latter brands stick with the more old school designs while Moperc has a bit more of a modern touch to them. Are these guys making a killing? Probably not, just regular folks doing something awesome to keep conga people happy. What is the retail on a new Giovanni? About 500 or so? I'd rather throw down an additional 250 per drum to get something that sounds better, looks better, supports local craftsmen AND will have a much better resale. I bought my first set of SOS back when they were 335 a pop in the 90's , sold them later for a bunch more, I've bought expensive ritmos that I sold for what I paid for them, now I have my mopercs which I'm keeping. Anyway you look at it it's a good investment that you won't lose money on, you can sell them used pretty much for what you paid for them new, especially since people don't want to wait three years for Matt Smith to finish your order.

Now if you want cheap prices on custom drums go to colombia and bring back some HR Piernas or go to cuba and buy some delapidated sonocs or have some solid shell drums made for 150-200. It can be done!
PC

[RitmoBoricua]

I agree with Jorge. Jorge do not forget GE that gets a tax return worth billions of dollars.Back to the drum is pure economy, all those things
that Jorge pointed out have an effect on the fewer and fewer things manufacture in USA. LP saw the writing on the wall like so many
other companies and took their production overseas, after all a business first priority is to turn a profit.Think Nike and their shoes I bet the cost
of making them shoes is not much one time they get them shoes in stores here the price is upward of $100 a pair, a big profit margin. SOS, Ritmos,
JCR and other custom drum makers here in USA can't compete with LP, Toca and others price wise. All things considered, new custom drums price is higher
but so is my grocery and gasoline bill. I do not think SOS have jacked-up prices to get rich but to reflect the ever increasing cost of labor and material needed to
make the drum.I would say that is almost cost prohibitive to make a drum here in USA. What really surprise me is the resilient of SOS, JCR and Ritmo to remain
in business and still offer quality drums. I tip my hat to them and those that support these custom drum makers.

[pcastag]

Fewer things being manufactured here doesn't necessarily affect the cost of making a custom drum here in the US, think if the artisan makes 20-30 an hour then add material expenses, machines, overhead etc. How many hours go into making one drum? 10? 20? Anything mass produced is cheaper and easier, especially when the workers are makng 2-3 bucks an hour. Even if LP was made here in the US, the cost of ritmos and mopercs and SOS would still be about the same. Those guys are not gouging for sure.

[Thebreeze]

All of these posts are excellent ones and have to say that I am coming away with more of an appreciation towards the Custom Conga Drum Makers that are faced with the high cost of making these fine works of art. ( in a real sense they are all Artists and their finished products reflect the pride that goes into their craftsmanship.) On another note, prices will continue to climb at a faster rate for drums where the maker has passed away, for example Junior's drums are no longer available unless you get them from a private party and most people are pretty much holding onto them these days. And while the original makers of Valjes ( Tom Flores ) and Gon Bops ( Mariano Bobadilla ) have long passed away, they produced a larger amount of drums than did Junior, so you can still find these vintage drums around without too much effort. King Congas is another where the maker passed away a long time ago and they did not make that many so they are in demand these days too, but you will have to pay a good price. Getting back to today's Custom Drum Makers, we do have choices as from which ones we would like to buy. I know that Matt Smith has a very long waiting time and can only hope that he has polished up his act somewhat to the point where he can get back up to speed becuase I know some might be skeptical of sending him advance payment on an order if there is uncertainty as to when they can expect them.
I know that Michel of MOPERC has a solid reputation for turn around time and seems very well organized. I think much of this is because he has a small staff that works for him ( at least the videos of his shop indicate that ).
I do not know much about SKIN ON SKIN mostly because I have never even spoken to him ( except one time when I called him at 10pm pacific time for some info and forgot that it was 1am in New York. He chewed me out but good!!! ) I am sure that some of the forum member have good info on Jay .

[Thebreeze]

Maybe a good way to go is to buy "used" for those of us that are not doing all that well financially. Being layed off for 3 years now makes it hard to go and buy a new set of Custom Congas as I will be spending 2000 dollars more or less for just 2 drums + shipping. Another thing I would like to suggest to Forum members that are thinking about selling vintage Custom drums is to let the Forum members have the first crack at it before going elsewhere first. I know someone that sold quite a few nice drums to a retailer instead of offering them here first. That's too bad about that and I guess to each his own, but I for one would have loved to have been able to get one or two for myself. So...please offer to the Forum first if you can as we all know how expensive these drums are costing whether they are being made new for us, or if we are buying them used from a music store, pawnshop, etc.

Please continue with your posts guys. I look forward to reading more !!!

Will Perez
Thebreeze

[jorge]

Fewer things being manufactured here doesn't necessarily affect the cost of making a custom drum here in the US, think if the artisan makes 20-30 an hour then add material expenses, machines, overhead etc. How many hours go into making one drum? 10? 20? Anything mass produced is cheaper and easier, especially when the workers are makng 2-3 bucks an hour. Even if LP was made here in the US, the cost of ritmos and mopercs and SOS would still be about the same. Those guys are not gouging for sure.

Cheap competition may not affect the production costs of the custom drums very much but it does affect the selling prices of custom drums. Cheap overseas labor and materials translate into cheap selling prices for mass produced drums, even if the company owner runs to the bank with plenty of profit. This cheap competition from "global" production would tend to drive the selling prices of custom US made drums down. For example, a new top of the line mass produced conga that when made overseas sells for $500 street would probably have to sell for a few hundred dollars more if it were made in the US by US labor using US materials, or else the company owners and shareholders wouldn't be able to make their expected profit. Those US mass produced drums wouldn't be able to compete with better sounding and more durable SOS or Ritmo drums selling for the same price. Demand would go down for the mass produced drums and up for the SOS and Ritmos. Maybe Jay and Matt wouldn't raise their prices in response to the increased demand, but most normal business people would hire helpers and office staff and grow the companies to be more profitable. People are willing to pay more for custom drums than mass produced drums so the mass production companies would likely start to cut even more corners (and try to cut their workers' wages) to lower the prices of their drums well below those of the custom drums. So by moving mass production overseas, the prices are kept low and market forces drag the prices of the custom drums down as well.

As far as making money making drums by hand, I don't know anyone who could make a handmade conga in 10 hours, probably not even 20. More like 30 or even 40 hours for a bent stave oak drum with hardware and skin and several coats of polyurethane, assuming all the tools, materials, workshop facilities etc are already in place. Of the $750 per drum, after deducting all other production, faciities and administrative expenses, probably less than $200 is left to pay the people who made the drum. So the artisan is making far less than $20-$30 an hour. Even $30 an hour would be a bit low considering the world class level of craftsmanship of those congas. Why would a true craftsman like Junior or Jay or Matt work for even less than that? Making congas is a labor of love, I have no other explanation. The average hourly wage of a plumber in New York is $32, so if a top master conga maker made that, the cost of a handmade conga would probably have to be well over $1200. I don't think any conga artisan makes that much, and judging from the recent selling prices on Ebay and websites, the used drum dealers probably make a lot more per hour than the actual drum makers, with a whole lot less effort, training and expertise required.

[pcastag]

Agreed. The houly was just considering time on task, there's a lot of setting, waiting etc. And you're absoluty right about the mass produced not being able to offer drums at a compertitive price if made here, except for economy of scale. Take a pay cut or put out an inferior product by cutting corners. And yes that would allow the boutique manufacturers to increase their prices into the 1200 and up range. It's all relative. Think of the cost of a hand made gibson or Martin, made right here in the US.

[Isaac]

Custom Price & Value vs. Mass Produced Price & Value

It's like comparing McDonalds with your mother's home cooking.

This quote below is from the world of guitar making, by a guitar luthier, but the same economic principle applies.
Guitarists and all other instrumentalists have always paid
much much more for their instruments than conga players, so we should alter our perspective.

The craftsman I've met have all chosen an inspired and individual model for making a living. When asked if
they'd like to scale up and improve their business model, most would simply say no, concerned about compromising their quality.

For the giant corp, like Fender (third owner of LP, and many other instrument companies),
the percussion is not their main income - it's still overwhelmingly entry level guitars,
and school instruments. They make a few quality high cost items, but their main revenue is from volume.
That's why they all moved to Asia in search of cheap labor and materials,
starting with Meinl from Germany in the early 80s.

4)

Value and price. A handmade guitar will carry a price which reflects its real value in terms of labor and overhead more truly than a factory made one which carries the same price. The former may take 200 hours of someone's conscientiously invested time and skill; the latter may take 8 to 36 hours of intensely repetitive and automated work. A factory will target a price at which it wishes to sell a certain product and will do everything it can to enable its introduction into the market at that level, including using parts made by others and mounting ad campaigns. A luthier will probably want to make something that's as open-endedly good as he can make it, without an overriding imperative from the profit motive. Because factory instruments are made for wholesaling and price markup, and handmade instruments are in general not, there is much more room for discounting within the system of retail store markups than an individual maker can offer. Discounting is a marketing tool, and factory made guitars are made and priced so that everybody in the complex chain of recordkeeping/tooling/subcontracting/assembling/
advertising/retailing/delivering can share in the profit.
Handmade guitars are priced so the maker can survive.

http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html

ISAAC

[tootyfull]

I must say that these discussions are quite insightful,particularly regarding the economics of creating these wonderful instruments by small business owners in the USA.I would only add that it would be nice to have these owner/operators weigh in their perspectives on their craft in this forum.Secondly,I have spoken to a few of them about a magazine article documenting the nature of their business to further reveal why they do what they do.Lastly,I would like to envision more publicity be given to these gentlemen(for maximizing exposure) to encourage our youth on the lost art of craftmanship and perhaps encourage those with a knack for business development to follow in their footsteps.After all,what happens when these artisans become old and gray like some of us? Just a thought!