Folkloric player seeks resource/advice on going Popular

[Assaf]

Hi folks

I'm a fairly decent conga player, studied in cuba and play regularly in informal rumbas and amateur bands. My focus is the folkloric side, so I play a lot of rumba and also palo, makuta, abacua etc. I also know the basic set conga rhythms for popular music, ie not just tumbao, but also Songo, Meren-Songo and a few others.

I've joined a son/salsa/latin jazz type band. It's not yet clear what we'll be doing, but it won't be a full salsa band and we won't be playing timba. We'll probably begin with standards.

The problem is that I don't really know popular stuff that well. I know quite a lot of rhythms, but need to know more about when to use them.

So I need a book/resource on percussion for popular music that will guide me on which rhythms to play and when to play them. eg What to play in the A section or B section, what to play in the montuno etc. I'm not looking for a book that teaches congas for beginners or spends much time teaching how to play each rhythm, or on technique. Rather some kind of reference that will say 'this is what you play in Son, this is what you play in Songo' etc

So can anyone suggest a good resource for me?
I have seen much talk (plus and minus) on this site of the Tomas Cruz books. I have read the long discussion following Thomas Altman's comments.
I also see praise for Michael Spiro's book, but haven't worked out if this is popular, folkloric or both.
I have also been handed a copy of a french book called 'Les Tumbaos De La Salsa' by Daniel Genton.

However, I can't work out which, if any, of these is really what I need.

So... any advice out there on which of the above or some other resource to go for?

Many thanks
Assaf

[JohnnyConga]

R u saying u can play folokloric but cant play tumbaos/marchas?...or don't know enough of them?...well there are many "rhythmic styles" (see my list of rhythms on my Congazine page) and tell me which ones u know and don't know...the new rhythms of today are Timba/Guarapachangeo/Songo/and a lot of New marchas on 2 and 3 congas....when to use the rhythms?...each tune should tell u what your suppossed to play..If it's a bolero its a bolero..and so on...if it's a "Mambo/Cha cha cha etc..." it's about laying down the "tumbaos/marchas".....and "playing time"...remember your playing "Dance" music so its about the dancers and not about you...so u play for them and play the best you can to let them "feel" YOUR pulse/marcha on the tumbadoras...the best players to me have the BEST TIME!....and TIME is music!....and Music is time!....hope this helps a bit......if there is anything u may need help with let me know...paz....Johnny Conga

[Assaf]

Yes that does help for starters. Thanks.

Re your questions. I play folkloric mostly, but yes I can also play a decent tumbao plus Songo, Meren-Songo, Pilon, Merengue, Mozambique etc. I also hear and agree with what you say re the conguero's place in this music is to keep time and play solid, with good feel and not egotistically.

When the sheet music says 'bolero' then I know it's a bolero and that I should play Bolero. That's not my question.
When I ask, 'when should I play which pattern?', I mean the following. Taking Son as an example, my understanding is that there are a choice of 'legal' patterns, and there are also several sections in the song, each section usually requiring a different variation on the basic Son pattern. Such is my understanding, but this is exactly the kind of thing I'm weak on and am looking for assistance with.

In Cuba my teacher took me through all the basic styles of popular music and showed me many of the appropriate conga rhythms. Re Son he taught me (can't remember exactly without looking at notes, but something as follows)
-a pattern for the intro and first section (basically tumbao on one drum, I think),
-a variation for the montuno (move onto 2 drums)
-I think for the solo section he suggested moving back to one drum
-and I think for the final section he suggested another variation, but I can't remember off hand.

So in my band, if we play a Son, then I think I'll know what to do and be alright.
-But if we play 2 Sons, then I'd like to know what I could do different from the previous tune.
-And if we play a Songo, then I won't really know what to do, as my teacher only gave me only 1 songo rhythm, and so I'd probably just play the same rhythm from beginning to end. This might not be what is required in Songo, but I'll never know until I find a resource or teacher to tell me. I could find other Songo rhythms online of course, but I still wouldn't really understand when to use each Songo rhythm, if indeed it is similar to Son in that several Songo rhythms are required within a single tune.
-If we play a guaguanco then I'm very familiar with that, but I don't know what is expected of me specifically within a popular context. I would probably just play a gentle version for one section and for the montuno I would maybe play double strokes on the salidor and make all the slaps and touches a little stronger. But is that what I'm supposed to do?

Does this help you understand what I'm looking for?
In short: I need something to teach me how to play conga for popular music, including an understanding which patterns to play in different sections of each song. But I don't need a total beginner's book that will take me through the absolute basics of playing conga. A book which does both, however, would be fine of course.

By the way Johnny, I've seen from your previous postings that you sometimes despair of people being too academic and always asking for books instead of going out and just playing for goodness sake. You'll be happy to know that almost all my experience comes from one on one lessons in Cuba and the UK and from practical rumbas and learning from peers, plus also some books of course I would love a teacher/peer for this question, but a) can't afford it right now and b) I'm not sure there is anyone appropriate near me.

So do you think Thomas Cruz is what I'm looking for, or something else? Like I said, I don't need to drive towards Timba. Not yet anyway.

Hope this helps
and I'll take a look at your Congazine page at some point. Can't right now.

Thanks
Assaf

[congaDR]

??

If you've done your listening, you have it covered.

Its all about listening, and knowing what others have done in the past. Then using it, recording yourself, and making corrections.

Fania allstars, Tata, Tito, Mongo, etc.

listening, over and over, in the car, in the shower, on the ipod, top new groups live.. continually.

Hope that helps,

Tony

[Assaf]

I hear you Tony, and agree of course, but I ain't there yet. I'm just starting on the popular route, and have not yet done enough listening.
We're already rehearsing and I need to be sure of the basics to get going and playing. Along the way I will listen and revise, but for now I need some explicit guidance.

On the folkloric side I've done lots and lots of listening and watching, but that's taken years. I don't have the opportunity to do that RIGHT NOW for this band. It's sink or swim time, and I need a resource that will assist.

[congaDR]

Assaf,

I hear you...

... is that Tito playing in the background??

Id spend all my time listening, till the gig happens.

I dont know of any one dvd that covers the nuances of tumbao. Or, when to drop in a 6/8 groove, etc.

Rolando Soto's tape, advanced conga, or something like that, has some nice tips for beginners.

Changuito has some really nice work on the 'histroy of the songo'

Giovanni has explanation of the popular styles in one of his tapes.. was it One on One? On another, he has explanations of the Puerto Rican popular styles.. if you cant find them, i can get the titles for you.

Gerry Gonzales has a tape that covers popular applications of folkloric material, as well as explanation of a couple tumbaos. it is a hard to find the tape...

I would think Tom Cruz's tapes are what you need, but i dont own them.

In the end, id find a good teacher.

good luck,

Tony

http://congadr.blogspot.com/

[Garvin]

I wrote a really long post earlier on this and freakin' lost it ARGH!!! But, I think it still hasn't really been addressed, so here it goes again...

I think you might be in a situation where you might know too much for your own good. Its obvious that you have a command of the instruments and the potential vocabulary, but you might be restricting yourself by thinking in the folkloric context, or in terms of "right and wrong". I understand that there are appropriate rhythms to play for these songs, but I think JC's point of playing time and generally grooving is important. In a lot of ways you are so fortunate to have studied what you have and with the folks you have no doubt benefit you in discussion, and an overall understanding of the roots of the music, but in a popular context, I think you may be restricting yourself a little too much with that knowledge.

In a lot of Salsa you will essentially be playing the same thing (tumbao, songo, bolero etc...), though throwing in your own variations and improvisations. I think it would benefit you to focus on your instrument in more of a support context rather than leading the dialogue as they would in a folkloric context. It might feel limiting at first, but in time you will reach the same comfort level you already have with the folkloric stuff.

[korman]

Well I do have the Thomas Cruz DVDs (and for me as a beginner they're great!) but they won't help you, because they only teach you technique and the marchas themselves, not how to organise them in the tune.

One book that comes to my mind is Ed Uribe "The Essence of Afro-Cuban Percussion and Drum Set". I don't have it, but I have browsed through it in the music store, and I'm thinking of buying it. Not only it has the marchas and grooves explained (which you don't need), but also there's quite a lot of about typical arrangements for most popular styles explained, and it is not just about congas, but all the rhythm section so a good resource anyway. I don't remember if it had a chapter on the songo, though.

[Derbeno]

This book and CD should help with how standard popular latin music is arranged

Afro-Cuban Play-Along CD and Book
Muy Caliente!

http://www.shermusic.com/muy_caliente.htm

[JohnnyConga]

Well the book by Rebeca Mauleon is good ....it has a variety of rhythmic "styles" like Charanga,Songo,Mozambique and others, more of a "play along" cd....it comes with 24 charts for percussion to help you to "read,count and follow" a chart, with breaks as well...I still recommend a "mentor" if possible...that could help you with the application of various rhythms/tumbaos/etc...books and videos take u just so far....Johnny Conga

[guarachon63]

Just a few more cents on this:

Since you are already familiar with the instrument in its folkloric context you probably don't have to worry too much about technique, and your ear is probably pretty well developed, so just listening will be key. If you are beginning with standards, then whoever is doing the charts will most likely have some reference material for the songs, or they shouldn't be too hard to come by. Get those and listen to them. Then listen to more songs by the same groups.

So in my band, if we play a Son, then I think I'll know what to do and be alright.
-But if we play 2 Sons, then I'd like to know what I could do different from the previous tune.

Don't get hung up on having to keep "changing it up" - that's not what it's about. You will be very highly appreciated if you can just get a good tone, play the basic pattern and stay in the pocket. If you are going to throw in licks, consider where in the song you are going to play them, don't just throw them in because you get bored. In fact it will be good practice to go for entire songs just playing the basic pattern, no licks at all.

-If we play a guaguanco then I'm very familiar with that, but I don't know what is expected of me specifically within a popular context. I would probably just play a gentle version for one section and for the montuno I would maybe play double strokes on the salidor and make all the slaps and touches a little stronger. But is that what I'm supposed to do?

In popular latin music, you will very rarely hear the typical guaguanco ostinato pattern, except as occasional embellishment. If the chart says it is a guaguancó then you should probably just play the typical son or mambo pattern. Guaguancó in this context refers to the song form, not to any rhythmic pattern.

Hope this helps. Don't stress out too much about it. Have fun!
barry

[Assaf]

Folks

All this advice is really helpful. Thanks very much indeed. I'll try to obtain some of the material you mention, and I'll also start getting down to more listening too.

The main advice that's coming through loud and clear is to focus on achieving a solid groove, good time, and not worrying about putting in licks and variations. OK, I'm listening.

"it will be good practice to go for entire songs just playing the basic pattern, no licks at all."
I'll do that.

I am actually quite comfortable with that advice, but at the moment I just don't always know which marcha to play. Even if I'm not looking to be in the limelight, I still need to know (don't I?) which marcha is good for the beginning, which for the Montuno, which for the solo/mambo section, etc. For example, Barry's comment on Guaguanco is exactly what I'm talking about. I had no idea when it says guaguanco that the folkloric guaguanco pattern is not intended.

So I'm hoping that the material you've mentioned (plus listening) will help.

Thanks a lot
Assaf

[Assaf]

you might be restricting yourself by thinking in the folkloric context, or in terms of "right and wrong"....JC's point of playing time and generally grooving is important.
......
in a popular context, I think you may be restricting yourself a little too much with that knowledge.

Hey Gavin, I don't think I really understood what you're saying here. Can you say more?
What do you mean re
-thinking in a folkloric context
-right and wrong
-restricting myself

[Garvin]

you might be restricting yourself by thinking in the folkloric context, or in terms of "right and wrong"....JC's point of playing time and generally grooving is important.
......
in a popular context, I think you may be restricting yourself a little too much with that knowledge.

Hey Gavin, I don't think I really understood what you're saying here. Can you say more?
What do you mean re
-thinking in a folkloric context
-right and wrong
-restricting myself

Sure, sorry for the confusion. I just meant that you might be approaching the popular stuff with the baggage of all you have learned from your folkloric background. That might limit you in terms of finding your voice in this different style.

With the right and wrong comment, I meant to imply that there are not always such strict rules for variations and that the improvisational nature of the conguero in Salsa allows him or her to kind of make their own way within the given context (kind of like jazz). So if you feel like playing a phrase that comes from say guaguanco while riding a tumbao or something, its totally up to you to do so (as long as it fits).

In terms of restricting yourself, I just meant that you might not want to be in the mindset that keeps you from trying things or playing in the moment. You have all of this knowledge and facility and in a lot of ways that can be confining. I wish I were better with examples here, but I guess it comes down to that old saying "there is more than one way to skin a cat" which I never really understood or appreciated (as a cat lover)... But basically it means that there is not only one way to do things. I would just encourage you trust your instincts with your instrument at this point. In a lot of ways simply listening and playing will do the trick.

Hope I clarified those points for you and again, sorry for the confusion.

[Assaf]

ok, thanks.