Rumba Quinto Book - How do you like the book?
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by qualitydag » Fri Mar 22, 2002 7:06 am
Just wondered if anyone here has worked with the quinto book? If so, what do you think about it?
Cliff Brooks
Cliff Brooks
- qualitydag
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by tamboricua » Tue May 14, 2002 12:30 am
Hi Cliff, hope all is well! I do have your Quinto book. I think is an excellent learning tool. At first is kind of confusing because of all the symbols, but after you become familiar with them it's a "piece of cake". It would be nice to include a suggested listening. Looking forward for Volume 2!
Saludos, Jorge Ginorio
Saludos, Jorge Ginorio
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by Bill Losh » Wed May 15, 2002 11:25 am
Cliff,
Just got your book two days ago, I think I like it. A tip that may work for others, photo copy the exercises you are working on so you can put a single page on a music stand instead of fighting with the book. The CD's are great, it made me want to start as soon as I heard them. Most instruction books lie around for a month before I open them , not yours.
Just got your book two days ago, I think I like it. A tip that may work for others, photo copy the exercises you are working on so you can put a single page on a music stand instead of fighting with the book. The CD's are great, it made me want to start as soon as I heard them. Most instruction books lie around for a month before I open them , not yours.
- Bill Losh
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by 120decibels » Thu Nov 07, 2002 4:13 pm
Cliff,
I've been debating sticking a crowbar into my wallet to buy this book. If you have a minute, post something here to sell the book to me. I've seen the website and I'm intrigued, but I need something to push me over the edge. What is this book going to give me?
I'm a hard sell, but I think that there is plenty of audience here to make it worth your while.
Zach
I've been debating sticking a crowbar into my wallet to buy this book. If you have a minute, post something here to sell the book to me. I've seen the website and I'm intrigued, but I need something to push me over the edge. What is this book going to give me?
I'm a hard sell, but I think that there is plenty of audience here to make it worth your while.
Zach
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120decibels - Posts: 189
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by sambamobil » Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:53 am
Hi Cliff,
your book is excellent. It is just what I have been looking for for many years and it surely fills a gab in percussion litterature.
BUT trying to play rhumba quinto you HAVE TO be a little more than a beginner and that is where the book starts. I think most of the readers quickly browses through the first half part of the book untill the first actual rides appears.
Maybe people who needs to learn what is in the first part of the book should wait a year or two before even thinking of playing the rhumba quinto.
Besides that it is a great book and I can not wait to get the 2nd. volume.
-sambamobil
your book is excellent. It is just what I have been looking for for many years and it surely fills a gab in percussion litterature.
BUT trying to play rhumba quinto you HAVE TO be a little more than a beginner and that is where the book starts. I think most of the readers quickly browses through the first half part of the book untill the first actual rides appears.
Maybe people who needs to learn what is in the first part of the book should wait a year or two before even thinking of playing the rhumba quinto.
Besides that it is a great book and I can not wait to get the 2nd. volume.
-sambamobil
"It's better to practise 5 hours a day,[br] than not practise at all"
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- Location: Denmark
by KingKongas » Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:24 am
I purchased your Book/CD set about a month or so ago... sight/review unseen based on the title alone (and the fact that I ran into it while going through Ginorio's site!) because I wanted a better understanding on soloing techniques. I agree that some of the book/CD is probably geared to the more advanced drummer but that was what I expected. I agree that the music notation and the layout of the book are a little awkward.... I have to clip it to my music stand or on the wall in un-normal sort of ways but I manage...
The CD tracks are definitely NOT long enough... I play the tracks to repeat a single track and it just doesnt "jive" while playing along with a metronome! I have to almost guess when the track will play again. The practice tracks are long enough and do provide a good practice tool!
I was hoping for a more in-depth analysis of soloing. More of 16ths, 32nds and even a few 64ths (asking for too much here?) just to whet the appetite but this book/CD has made the "where" to start soloing a little easier to understand and practice. But only in the Rhumba/Guaguanco rhythm. Maybe in Volume 2 there could be soloing techniques for other rhythms as well?!?!?!?
I basically listen to the "more advanced" tracks on the CD and forget the rest as it is too basic.
I really have appreciated the "phrases" in your book as it gave me a visual as well as audio sense that I could actually "put together" a few things over several measures and "get back to the rhythm pocket" so to speak.
Cliff, I think it's GREAT that you are in THIS forum and can receive feedback from this most enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and avid a base of drummers! I respect that.
The CD tracks are definitely NOT long enough... I play the tracks to repeat a single track and it just doesnt "jive" while playing along with a metronome! I have to almost guess when the track will play again. The practice tracks are long enough and do provide a good practice tool!
I was hoping for a more in-depth analysis of soloing. More of 16ths, 32nds and even a few 64ths (asking for too much here?) just to whet the appetite but this book/CD has made the "where" to start soloing a little easier to understand and practice. But only in the Rhumba/Guaguanco rhythm. Maybe in Volume 2 there could be soloing techniques for other rhythms as well?!?!?!?
I basically listen to the "more advanced" tracks on the CD and forget the rest as it is too basic.
I really have appreciated the "phrases" in your book as it gave me a visual as well as audio sense that I could actually "put together" a few things over several measures and "get back to the rhythm pocket" so to speak.
Cliff, I think it's GREAT that you are in THIS forum and can receive feedback from this most enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and avid a base of drummers! I respect that.
- KingKongas
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 5:24 am
- Location: DC metro area
by TresGolpes » Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:54 pm
I have been through the book and like some I just went through the CD and its notation material.
As Volume I it definitely does the job of Quinto rides.
For Volume II I suggest the following:
1) Besides the current way the CD recording is made, include LIVE play of the licks to better portray the feeling of each phrase.
2) Include different approaches to Rhythmic progressions, for example:
A basic phrase, with Unaccented and Accented variations of the phrase
The Basic Phrase with 3,4 fills for the phrase as it rides in a series of bars.
Alternates of slaps and open and where they lead to:
SSO SSSSO S-S-S--O
Then
OOS OOOOS O-O-O--S
Then Muffled tones and open tone variations
3) Tighter phrases like those above, Volume I oriented itself to the sparse style of quinto playing (very traditional). Maybe Volume II should have "busier" phrases, common in other styles.
4) Different approaches to the drum head:
A descent from wide/high licks to very tight 16 note licks (Go from high to low, with lots of roll variations at the low end)
A choppy style, side-to-side of the licks, particularly slaps and muffled. Some people refer to this as a primitive "unpolished" style that is common with muffled tones, high on the drum, culminating in short 16 note short licks...e.g. Abakua style.
The "feel" of these can only be demonstrated in a live drum example.
5) More on rolls and what to insert in between short rolls to turn it into a different phrase
Bottom line: An approach to a percussion study of what to do with a phrase in the top of the page and develop it in various styles (High to low descent licks, alternate slap open variations) as you go to the bottom of the page. I find it particularly intense when a player "obsesses" over a phrase and begins a progression of the phrase, over and over again, but each with a different feel !
All in all, how I practice only has about 40 different distinct phrases, yet when I apply the different approaches I systematically can go to 300 variations (total) that can go into a solo. I don't want to suggest a very complicated approach to all this, more of a "Here is a phrase, now apply some variation rules(I use about 8 blocks of rules, varying the time, note groupings and descent positions---then I apply one of these rules to the phrase in which they sound best). After all of this I see what interesting feels come out of it" !!!
I suggest for all the rumberos out there to get a drum machine and plug in the initial phrase(you can also overlay a full ensemble with Palitos, claves, cowbell and Tumbaos), turn it on, and pound away the phrase and its variations, returning to the phrase that the drum machine relentlessly plays,, then shift and "distort" the phrase but all in the pocket of the original phrase...very tricky but incredibly captivating... I already programmed Cliff's material into my machine, so Cliff you will be forever etched into its memory !
In conclusion, these are my suggestions, Cliff: Volume I is a masterpiece for all the Repicadores !
Edited By TresGolpes on April 07 2003 at 18:07
As Volume I it definitely does the job of Quinto rides.
For Volume II I suggest the following:
1) Besides the current way the CD recording is made, include LIVE play of the licks to better portray the feeling of each phrase.
2) Include different approaches to Rhythmic progressions, for example:
A basic phrase, with Unaccented and Accented variations of the phrase
The Basic Phrase with 3,4 fills for the phrase as it rides in a series of bars.
Alternates of slaps and open and where they lead to:
SSO SSSSO S-S-S--O
Then
OOS OOOOS O-O-O--S
Then Muffled tones and open tone variations
3) Tighter phrases like those above, Volume I oriented itself to the sparse style of quinto playing (very traditional). Maybe Volume II should have "busier" phrases, common in other styles.
4) Different approaches to the drum head:
A descent from wide/high licks to very tight 16 note licks (Go from high to low, with lots of roll variations at the low end)
A choppy style, side-to-side of the licks, particularly slaps and muffled. Some people refer to this as a primitive "unpolished" style that is common with muffled tones, high on the drum, culminating in short 16 note short licks...e.g. Abakua style.
The "feel" of these can only be demonstrated in a live drum example.
5) More on rolls and what to insert in between short rolls to turn it into a different phrase
Bottom line: An approach to a percussion study of what to do with a phrase in the top of the page and develop it in various styles (High to low descent licks, alternate slap open variations) as you go to the bottom of the page. I find it particularly intense when a player "obsesses" over a phrase and begins a progression of the phrase, over and over again, but each with a different feel !
All in all, how I practice only has about 40 different distinct phrases, yet when I apply the different approaches I systematically can go to 300 variations (total) that can go into a solo. I don't want to suggest a very complicated approach to all this, more of a "Here is a phrase, now apply some variation rules(I use about 8 blocks of rules, varying the time, note groupings and descent positions---then I apply one of these rules to the phrase in which they sound best). After all of this I see what interesting feels come out of it" !!!
I suggest for all the rumberos out there to get a drum machine and plug in the initial phrase(you can also overlay a full ensemble with Palitos, claves, cowbell and Tumbaos), turn it on, and pound away the phrase and its variations, returning to the phrase that the drum machine relentlessly plays,, then shift and "distort" the phrase but all in the pocket of the original phrase...very tricky but incredibly captivating... I already programmed Cliff's material into my machine, so Cliff you will be forever etched into its memory !
In conclusion, these are my suggestions, Cliff: Volume I is a masterpiece for all the Repicadores !
Edited By TresGolpes on April 07 2003 at 18:07
- TresGolpes
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 11:56 pm
by KingKongas » Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:00 pm
TresGolpes! You are making LOTS of sense to me. This is exactly what I am looking for.... I'm at a point where i need more help in "fills" and "phrases" and various alternatives and "tighter phrases" as you describe it. Also your description of rolls and short rolls, the 16th note licks to complement a pattern, etc. I'd like to know more about this from you (or anyone else) along these lines. Would you care to share more of your thoughts/practice tecniques on this? You've got my attention! I can handle basic rhythms and can feel a need for understanding better some of the concepts you mention. I'd like to know some more phrasing patterns that I can practice. I know that all soloing patterns are not the same for every rhythm but I want to have more of the basic "building blocks" of things that I can practice that will help my soloing. Are there books/videos that you know of, or use, that deal with the topics you are talking about??? Please let me know!
My apologies to all for bringing this topic under this post!
If you care to reply to the Conga-technique, rhtyhm, exercise under a post "help for soloing" I started... please do. Thanks for hearing me out.
My apologies to all for bringing this topic under this post!
If you care to reply to the Conga-technique, rhtyhm, exercise under a post "help for soloing" I started... please do. Thanks for hearing me out.
- KingKongas
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 5:24 am
- Location: DC metro area
by TresGolpes » Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:53 pm
Well, it all starts with Tres Golpes: Pam--Pam--Pam (just kidding, you all know what a Tres Golpes is)...
OK, so here are some ideas, but first some background information...
Notes in music activate through your auditory nerves the neuron connections in the brain...so the strategy of what I mention below is to activate a cluster of neurons with a basic phrase and keep hammering at it from different directions, in novel ways, to keep those neurons looking in all directions !
For example: Take the phrase sSs-SS (the S is an accent for the everpresent sss-ss in so many solos). What can you do with such a simple building block and play it as if it a lot of different variations ?
1) Split the phrase - Take the first half, repeat it multiple times - sSs sSs sSs-SS or the ending SS SS
2) Play the phrase in a descent fashion, high on the s S s then lower into the SS down below
3) Add 16 note rolls in between - sSs-SS ssss sSs-ss ssss ssss
4) Add fills sSs-SS s-s-s sSs-SS ss-s sSs-SS s--s s--s
5) Play it choppy style (wide side to side licks, high from above)
6) Alternate it with opens sSs-OO or muffled mMm-OO, or oOo-SS
Some fills and rolls sound better with some basic phrases, all you need is a FILL BLOCK to choose from, then apply the whole FILL BLOCK to the basic phrase. For myself I have about 5 FILL BLOCKS that I apply as a template to a basic phrase, 4 fills to a block, here is a block
Ss,,,
SS-S
S-S-S
SsSs
Always aim for an unaccented fill (Ss) and after the phrase an accented fill (SS-S). This gives the solo excitement, the unaccented fills 'rewind' the phrase, while the accented ones 'emphasize' the phrase. As for myself I don't go beyond 15 seconds in a developing a phrase, it gets boring for everyone...so you take the ending of the 15 seconds and develop another phrase, go for another 15 seconds on that, and so on.
7) Finally you can Front Load the Phrase or Back Load the Phrase, by this I mean a phrase that starts with the fills or a phrase that ends with fills. This may turn the phrase into a different neural recognition, so use this with caution:
s-Ss-s-s-s sSs-SS (Front loaded)
sSs-SS s-ss-s--s--ss (Back loaded)
Sound totally different, as the phrases cluster with fills they become ever larger phrases !!
And finally you can go into a 6/8 feel with the phrase, "stretching" the notes ... or you can slow down the phrase by heightening your hands and descend really slow...by this point you should finish the phrase since psychologically most people tune off that phrase at that point...at this point whack them with a FLAM--FLAM--FLAM, begin to play low another phrase back at step 1.
OK, so here are some ideas, but first some background information...
Notes in music activate through your auditory nerves the neuron connections in the brain...so the strategy of what I mention below is to activate a cluster of neurons with a basic phrase and keep hammering at it from different directions, in novel ways, to keep those neurons looking in all directions !
For example: Take the phrase sSs-SS (the S is an accent for the everpresent sss-ss in so many solos). What can you do with such a simple building block and play it as if it a lot of different variations ?
1) Split the phrase - Take the first half, repeat it multiple times - sSs sSs sSs-SS or the ending SS SS
2) Play the phrase in a descent fashion, high on the s S s then lower into the SS down below
3) Add 16 note rolls in between - sSs-SS ssss sSs-ss ssss ssss
4) Add fills sSs-SS s-s-s sSs-SS ss-s sSs-SS s--s s--s
5) Play it choppy style (wide side to side licks, high from above)
6) Alternate it with opens sSs-OO or muffled mMm-OO, or oOo-SS
Some fills and rolls sound better with some basic phrases, all you need is a FILL BLOCK to choose from, then apply the whole FILL BLOCK to the basic phrase. For myself I have about 5 FILL BLOCKS that I apply as a template to a basic phrase, 4 fills to a block, here is a block
Ss,,,
SS-S
S-S-S
SsSs
Always aim for an unaccented fill (Ss) and after the phrase an accented fill (SS-S). This gives the solo excitement, the unaccented fills 'rewind' the phrase, while the accented ones 'emphasize' the phrase. As for myself I don't go beyond 15 seconds in a developing a phrase, it gets boring for everyone...so you take the ending of the 15 seconds and develop another phrase, go for another 15 seconds on that, and so on.
7) Finally you can Front Load the Phrase or Back Load the Phrase, by this I mean a phrase that starts with the fills or a phrase that ends with fills. This may turn the phrase into a different neural recognition, so use this with caution:
s-Ss-s-s-s sSs-SS (Front loaded)
sSs-SS s-ss-s--s--ss (Back loaded)
Sound totally different, as the phrases cluster with fills they become ever larger phrases !!
And finally you can go into a 6/8 feel with the phrase, "stretching" the notes ... or you can slow down the phrase by heightening your hands and descend really slow...by this point you should finish the phrase since psychologically most people tune off that phrase at that point...at this point whack them with a FLAM--FLAM--FLAM, begin to play low another phrase back at step 1.- TresGolpes
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- Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 11:56 pm
by RayBoogie » Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:34 am
Can you explain what the lower case (s) and the upper case (S) means??
Can elaborate on # 2, high on the s S s then lower into the SS down below?
This is a very interesting method TresGolpes! Thanks.
Can elaborate on # 2, high on the s S s then lower into the SS down below?
This is a very interesting method TresGolpes! Thanks.
-
RayBoogie - Posts: 221
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by KingKongas » Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:30 am
Hey PAM-PAM-PAM... I mean Tres Golpes... 
You are definitely on the right track for me! I really understand what you are saying and I know how difficult it is to put your knowledge in writing but keep on writing because it seems to have hit a neuron with me. I'm even getting all the "psycho-neuro" stuff you are talking about!!! I'm practicing some of your stuff already and hope to incorporate your thoughts into my drumming. What is sSs is as compared to a "beat"... I guess what I'm askiing is what are the "note values" for the beats you are laying down? Are each of the groups in one beat? For e.g., in a 4/4 time... is the group "sSs-SS ssss sSs-ss ssss ssss" in the time of 1-2-3-4?
Would you consider writing a book???
You are definitely on the right track for me! I really understand what you are saying and I know how difficult it is to put your knowledge in writing but keep on writing because it seems to have hit a neuron with me. I'm even getting all the "psycho-neuro" stuff you are talking about!!! I'm practicing some of your stuff already and hope to incorporate your thoughts into my drumming. What is sSs is as compared to a "beat"... I guess what I'm askiing is what are the "note values" for the beats you are laying down? Are each of the groups in one beat? For e.g., in a 4/4 time... is the group "sSs-SS ssss sSs-ss ssss ssss" in the time of 1-2-3-4?
Would you consider writing a book???
- KingKongas
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 5:24 am
- Location: DC metro area
by KingKongas » Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:47 pm
RayB-
I'll let TresGolpes answer your question but for me... I'm taking the capital S (or other capital letters) to mean an "accented" beat as compared to the lower case letters. Some notation schemes that I have seen have the capital letter to mean "right-hand" or strong hand but I dont think that's what it means for TresGolpes but let's hear from him. I'm doing the phrases starting with the right hand first and then again starting with the left hand first and only concentrating on the accented beats on which ever hand it falls on. This is difficult to explain in writing so I hope it makes some sense.
I'll let TresGolpes answer your question but for me... I'm taking the capital S (or other capital letters) to mean an "accented" beat as compared to the lower case letters. Some notation schemes that I have seen have the capital letter to mean "right-hand" or strong hand but I dont think that's what it means for TresGolpes but let's hear from him. I'm doing the phrases starting with the right hand first and then again starting with the left hand first and only concentrating on the accented beats on which ever hand it falls on. This is difficult to explain in writing so I hope it makes some sense.
- KingKongas
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 5:24 am
- Location: DC metro area
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