Tomas Cruz Method - some criticism

[Thomas Altmann]

Relatively late, I purchased the three volumes only recently. The format of this studying tool (large notation, DVD, slow breakdown) seems perfect to me.

The material presented in the books is accurate and interesting, especially in the instances where it deviates slightly from the way I had learned it. As I said earlier, I (and certainly many of us) had to travel, struggle and dig for years to piece together my repertory of rhythms, licks and patterns that is simply thrown at students in these books.

So far so good. It may sound heretical to some, and I'm certainly not making any friends with this; but it must be possible to express an even unpopular opinion.

Volume 3 is an interesting analysis of the Timba drumming style of one particular drummer - Tomas Cruz. He presents the rhythms he created himself to apply them to the particular musical situations he was facing in his personal career. Once the rhythms are learned, something that isn't exactly done in five minutes, as was stated before, we know how he did it; another drummer in another situation could come up with an equal amount of personal ideas, and so on. I mean: what is the asset in the end? What about the student? Unless he is a dedicated admirer of Tomas Cruz, the advice to use his own creativity is probably the most effective lesson that is stated in this book. I don't think I'll become a better drummer if I learned someone's private repertory, especially if this would take me a year of study.

The same with his so-called recursos. These do partly coincide with the licks that I learned, sometimes they go beyond them. (Others are missing in turn.) Some of them are identical with things I developed myself, others bring up technical stuff that I had found out but discarded, because they made no musical sense to me. I brought some exercises and fills home from a young drummer in Havana called Daniel Carbonell, who could be my son, by his age. They are different, but inspired by similar ideas. I think that every drummer has his own bag of tricks that he collected with the time. It is a very personal, even intimate, affair, and though it's nice of him to share some of his little things with us, they might not make the same sense to us as to him. They should not be preached and spread as the gospel.

My main issue, however, is his stroke technique and sound articulation. My question is: Is that what should be on an instructional DVD? Is really everybody in this forum glad to learn this kind of technique? I would really like to know it! I do not doubt that Tomas is a great player in the various groups he is playing (and I am going to buy the recommended "Con la conciencia tranquila", too). But in my opinion he does not present the kind of technique that is recommendable as a foundation for beginners. Hell, I say it: I found it horrible! He is "grabbing" the closed slaps, he travels too long distances on the playing surface, he does not incorporate the natural fall or gravity, he does not rest his hands on the edge of the drum when he could, he lifts the arms/hands too soon, he is pressing his fingers together for open tone strokes and even for slaps, causing tension in the forearms, making a relaxed stroke impossible. The sound comes out accordingly. As far as I can see, there are only a few mistakes he does not make.

That's what I see, and that's what I think about it. Once again, I will extract my 5 percent profit from the books, while I keep on playing my own stuff. And who knows, maybe I will have a chance to go and see Tomas Cruz actually perform one day, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

Sorry, but after all these laudatory comments I felt that some criticism was seriously missing.

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

I don't think I'll become a better drummer if I learned someone's private repertory, especially if this would take me a year of study.
My main issue, however, is his stroke technique and sound articulation.

Hi Thomas,
I had a similar reaction to his technique, although I don't think I checked it out as far as you did. I decided early that I didn't want to adapt his technique.

What Vol. 3 does, is take you inside those specific timba compositions, from the perspective of the conguero. It seems similar to Changuito's "History of Songo" for timbales and congas, but they don't tell you the specific tunes for which Changuito created those parts. It's very hard for non-Cubans to play timba. I can always tell when it's a recording of a non-Cuban band playing timba. So, I think Vol. 3 is valuable for a conga player wanting to learn how to play timba. It's a start.

Actually being able to play timba in a band would require learning much more of course. A lot of timba musicians came out of the ENA and I think being a student there would probably be the best training for getting inside the timba genre.

I don't think most students buy the books so they can play in a timba band. I think they do so because of the great variety of patterns. There seems to be a natural phase for many conga students where they collect parts.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David,

thank you for your response; I'm glad I'm not the only one who realized it.

Actually being able to play timba in a band would require learning much more of course. A lot of timba musicians came out of the ENA and I think being a student there would probably be the best training for getting inside the timba genre.

It sounds as if you find Timba the most demanding style of music that a conga player could cover. You may be right; I'm still trying to find out what this job is about at it's core. I cannot imagine that it's so different from all the other Cuban styles; I mean, it didn't come out of nowhere.

By the way, I was trying to get this "Conciencia" CD, and the prices at Amazon and Ebay range from 37 Dollars to 127 Euros. That's completely ridiculous of course; too much sacrifice for just checking what's going on.

Thomas

[JohnnyConga]

Hi Thomas do u have a video of your 'style' of playing...Im actually surprised at your critique of Tomas Cruz....Im not defending him . I found your critique very in depth and would like to see your "style" of playing versus his...just to be fair all way around...Johnny Conga...

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Johnny,

regrettably I do not have a video of my playing. There is one DVD out with me playing on the Burghausen Jazz Festival with Joe Gallardo's group, and I suppose that my solo is on it, too. I haven't even seen it to this day. People told me that they had seen me on TV with it, but so far, I couldn't get a copy.

Also you probably know yourself that when you perform "in reality", you do a lot of things, technically, that you would not put on a video for your students. I find that you need a good technical foundation first - that's what you usually learn in drum lessons, and then you go out to play and better do not try to consciously duplicate what you practiced, because now you are going to play MUSIC (different ballgame). Your hours of practice rather help you subconsciously. Isn't it like that?

Maybe one day I find someone who has a digital camera and who is interested in documenting some sort of "lesson" with TA. I'm afraid it won't be Mel Bay, though.

Thomas

[JohnnyConga]

Hi Thomas Thank you for your response but i have to disagree with NOT showing "technicallity" as u say to my students on a video ...Of course i would! technique is what it's about to me...so for me NOT to do that for them would be not be maintaining my integrity when it comes to teaching...hours of practice will "hone" ones skill level...why wouldnt I want to duplicate and put to use what techniques I have learned?......i definetly put to use what I practice in the music I perform....all the time and I am learning new things to practice and to perform with...Johnny Conga....

[JohnnyConga]

Also remember that Tomas had no less than 6 different teachers while at ENA...which most drummers there seem to have...and their "styles" are all similar .....check out Pepe Espinosa or Pakito Baez...same school....but they also have their own creative "recursos" ....as well... so much to learn so litle time....Johnny Conga....

[Thomas Altmann]

Johnny, you probably got me wrong; surely I would put technique on a video, as in an actual teaching situation I am painstakingly watching over technically accurate execution, too.

What I wanted to say is that when I perform, I do not think about my technique anymore; so sometimes a student could see me doing things I would not teach him (so what). Sometimes kids ask me in the next lesson, why I was pulling my shoulders up on stage, or whatever I taught them not to do, and I say, "look when you are playing for twenty-five years, I am not going to criticise your technique either. In your second year of learning the instrument you learn to execute things CORRECTLY, and if in 20 years the musical situation requires you to play with your ---- *, do it under all circumstances."

When I am in a performing situation, I have found more than once that whenever I tried to quote something from my practice room, the music suffered, sometimes to the point where I got stuck in the middle of my playing. I must confess, though, that there are cases where I can apply recently practiced licks with no risk for the music; probably these are cases where the particular style typically incorporates a frequent display of licks, or an experimental attitude.

Thomas


*(insert a word depending on the student's age and sex)

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Thomas,
I believe I would find playing in a timba band the most demanding of dance band gigs I could have. I consider many of the timba conga drum parts to be quite intricate. It would be very tough for me to sub for one of those guys and have to learn all their inventos! If I subbed in an old school salsa band or even some songo-era bands, it would be easier. I think even more demanding though, are the timba arrangements, each band has their own approach that is slightly different than other bands. I’m speaking of the different sections, where breakdowns, motivos, etc happen.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

@David:

I consider many of the timba conga drum parts to be quite intricate. It would be very tough for me to sub for one of those guys and have to learn all their inventos!

For me it would be close to impossible, I must say.

I think even more demanding though, are the timba arrangements, each band has their own approach that is slightly different than other bands. I’m speaking of the different sections, where breakdowns, motivos, etc happen.

There are instances where I have to turn a gig offer down without tears in my eyes, like playing timpani in a symphonic orchestra. I think, this here would be another case.

@Johnny:

Also remember that Tomas had no less than 6 different teachers while at ENA...which most drummers there seem to have...and their "styles" are all similar

In respect to what I have seen on the DVD, I don't care how many teachers Tomas had. Changuito told me he was an autodidact! Now here is the guy who taught me how to play, and his technique is light years away from what I saw Tomas do in the video, no matter how many lessons he had with Changuito.

The point is, and I forgot to add this, that I did not invent my technical system; I got the principles from Changuito himself, and from some of his students (Rodolfo "El Moro" and "Fosforo" of LA 440). All I contributed to it is based on their approach.

The fact that their styles are similar is a quite ambivalent statement. But I cannot really speak with authority here, because I don't know in which respect they resemble each other.

.....check out Pepe Espinosa or Pakito Baez...same school....but they also have their own creative "recursos" ....as well...

Kind of embarrassing that I don't even know their names, but not astonishing either, due to my lack of listening experience in Timba.

so much to learn so litle time....

You know, Johnny, I respect you very much, as everybody does in this forum, I think. It would be presumtuous if I tried to give you any pointers. Also, we are all different individuals, and if you find it is good for you to try to learn all the things that other people do, just the effort might bring you forward.

Speaking about myself, however, I must affirm what David said: "There seems to be a natural phase for many conga students where they collect parts." An extrapolation of this idea would be that in the career of an artist and the respective stage of his artistic evolution, there are specific periods that are better suited for working on specific topics than others. I believe that, at least as far as I am concerned, from a certain point of maturity on, it would be anachronistic to still engage in matters suited for a twenty years old student. It forbids itself. It's right that one should never stop learning, but I believe firmly that the focus naturally moves over to the more subtle, almost metaphysical aspects of the art.

Contrary to me, you do have videos on YouTube for everybody to watch. Of course, I have seen them, too, and as everybody can see, you are a very strong player, who has all the tradition behind himself, plus experience, plus versatility, plus plus .... Everything you play is just RIGHT.

All I can say is, if I were in your place, I would principally concentrate on other things than somebody else's next lick. But I am not you.

Thomas



Edited By Thomas Altmann on 1205798189

[davidpenalosa]

I would principally concentrate on other things than somebody else's next lick.

Just to play "Devil’s advocate" here, for a moment…My own interests have evolved over the years too. However, I have noticed that I've been teaching my own method for so many years that it's actually harder for me to learn new patterns now than it was 20 or 30 years ago when that was more of a regular occurrence in my life. So, in the interest of keeping my aging mind more nimble, I see an advantage in learning somebody else's next lick, or a different arrangement of a folkloric rhythm. Not that I actually have much time for that though…
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Nothing diabolic here, David. The actual "regular occurrence" is the necessary tendency of any individual to confess, to make partly irreversible decisions for one's life, in order to create reality, to help one's own ideas come to life. This naturally diminishes one's options in life and narrows the personal path. It is a form of con-centration or focussing of potential energies. If you don't define (con-fine) yourself in this way, you remain ineffective, un-directed. It starts with choosing your profession (which is quite similar in its root meaning as confession), goes on with marriage and with the decision to have children (or not). As an artist, you have to make decisions all the time, as your artistic life reflects, or corresponds to, your respective life period or state of consciousness.

All this feels very one-directional, very narrow indeed, and this concentration or focus calls for a balance through diffusion, dissolution, or diversion, to broaden the path and give the mind freedom. But it would be an illusion to think it was the same freedom that we had when we were young; it's just a playful rescue. It's an Eshú, an Eleggua game; going one's own path, and at the same time claiming to do whatever you desire.

Once I used to solve crossword puzzles after great gigs. And yes, I fool around with odd "rudiments" in order to loosen up, too. But I don't do it to build my "style" anymore. Lastly, I don't make friends as easily as thirty years ago, either. Or if I do, it's not really the same.

Was that off-topic?

Thomas



Edited By Thomas Altmann on 1205810028

[burke]

Wow - I'm gonna interpose myself on a conversation between 3 of the heaviest (that’s a compliment) dudes in the forum. But here goes:

The topic is extremely timely for me since I got books about a month ago and have been working with them every since.

If you haven't gathered from my previous posts (but I bet you have) I'm one of those guys who love congas and farted around with them for a long time - for 20 years I 'banged' on them in blissful ignorance - then got a bit more serious 10 years ago and much more serious in the last 3 years. I will never be a pro - and I'm AOK with that - I can cut a gig with good players who don't know better and I strive to get better cause it just feels good to improve at something - even if nobody but my cat hears it.

So reading Thomas's critique was cool and I what I bring to the conversation is the perspective of the beginner/intermediate.

I haven’t anything to say about the first bits of Thomas’s first post but on the last section:

On the grabbing of slaps here is what I thought: It seems like the few teachers I’ve had and most of the slaps in various books and videos (some older books without video and Bobby Sanabria’s Video) all teach it with the cupped hand.

My theory is this is the way that best introduces a beginner to somewhat successful slap - so that’s the way it gets shown and later after some success comes refinement and better ergodynamics (sp?)

However, a long fantastic threat a while back introduced me to the concept of a flatter slap and I’ve been working that every since and I ain’t goin back!

The way he preforms many of the strokes does look a bit forced/tense/unnatural at the slower speeds. But as the speed increases it relaxes (to my eye).

My theory - I also fence and have taught fencing. I teach the way I was taught - slow movements focusing on an almost ridiculously good form. Why? Because that sort of focus will mean that as a beginner speeds up their muscle memory will retain some of the form and they won’t just flail about. I think this may be why its approached that way (again just my theory).

I will say that I followed his strokes as exactly as I could (long distances and all) and doing those slow strokes with just wrist and no arm motion is a forearm workout.

Here are a couple more spare impressions:

I could ‘do’ an open slap before but I never really practiced like the book makes you practice - those exercises going from open tones to open slaps in various combinations are challenging (at least for me) to perform crisply - that’s good medicine!

More great medicine for me is in the Heel/tip section. First - rolling in the opposite direction of my normal one - don’t know why I’m doing it but its hard to do and I like it! THEN that whole section/exercise where you do HT at one tempo with one hand while doubling/tripling/quadrupling with the other - then reversing hands! Whoa Momma! I though brain was gonna split in half and it would take me weeks - I still am not there but its coming faster than I thought it would.

I’m a bit surprised doesn’t teach HT left / HT right but I do that as part of my old warm up anyway.

Finally - the snare rudiments with open tones - I’m working on it and will continue to do so - but honestly I don’t really get it. It seems that the book suggests that somehow this will or can be faster than straight sticking - but I don’t see it - yet.

I have yet to even crack the second book yet - I want to reach a certain comfort level with the first before I move on.

So to sum up - I get what is being said and see the points of being made but still find a lot of value in the books for a guy in my position.

[davidpenalosa]

Was that off-topic?

No, just deep.

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi burke,

On the grabbing of slaps here is what I thought: It seems like the few teachers I’ve had and most of the slaps in various books and videos (some older books without video and Bobby Sanabria’s Video) all teach it with the cupped hand.

Most slap techniques that I know are cup-hand to a certain degree. When I play my 9" quinto, I even make a deep (or high) cup to get my hands placed appropriately on the small head. What I dont like to see is too high knuckles, too much outward tilting of the hand, and - what I refer to as "grabbing" - the pulling inward of the fingers or grabbing motion as part of the actual stroke. I make minimal hand adjustments between the different sounds. People say they cannot see what I'm doing to change from open to slap.

And, I am not saying that anything else is wrong. Just if you look after a good technique once in your life, why not go for the most economic and effective one? That there are hundreds and thousands of great players making great music with a technique that is less than optimal, is indisputable.

My theory is this is the way that best introduces a beginner to somewhat successful slap - so that’s the way it gets shown and later after some success comes refinement and better ergodynamics (sp?)

Nice idea. Just to give them the experience of success. Yes, why not. Usually I show my disciples the whole variety of slap techniques that I have learned in my life (some of them are real funny), commenting that neither one is wrong, and the more techniques you know, the better it is for you. BUT - there is one particular way that seems to be the best to me, because ... - Then I start teaching the OPEN SLAP FIRST.
There were cases where a student expressively wanted a short-term instruction for a fool-proof slap, and if this person would in all probability never have to survive a three- or four-hour Salsa gig, I fed him/her the cup-hand grabbing thing, and good-bye. After all, he is paying me for giving him something that he is looking for.

To start slow-motion is the acknowledged method to introduce playing techniques. The only problem is that with strokes that imply and require an accelerated motion to achieve the sound, the slow-motion breakdown can only serve as a complementary demonstration.

Thomas



Edited By Thomas Altmann on 1205815306