Tomas Cruz Method - some criticism

[davidpenalosa]

My theory is this is the way that best introduces a beginner to somewhat successful slap - so that’s the way it gets shown and later after some success comes refinement and better ergodynamics (sp?)

I used to share that theory, but then some of my students learned the flat slap at the beginning and they can really make their slaps pop higher than most drummers around here. This is an approach to slapping that I think was codified in the teaching at the Conjunto Folklorico National. I'm now convinved that learning the flat slap right off is best. I'm also seeing the flat slap work well with my nine year old son, who hardly plays at all. Best to start with correct technique I think.

I know that un-learning things with this music is very difficult for me. Afterall, it's about body memory. I practiced long hours so that my hand would make the sounds I desired. It's hard to undue that. I can make those Conjunto Folklorico flat slaps way easier and better on my left hand because my left hand did not play a million slaps from years of tumbao. Being much less "trained", I could get my left hand to learn a new way to slap.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

No, just deep.

An old habit of mine - can you imagine how many girls I have already driven away because of this?

TA

[burke]

"too high knuckles, too much outward tilting of the hand"

Ahhhh ...that image clears the picture a bit ... I agree ...like I said I recently started making the transition to a flatter slap that is has little of that angulation of attack that you are pointing out.

I wasn't 100% clear upon re - reading
"I used to share that theory, but then some of my students learned the flat slap at the beginning ..."

I was trying to say that I was surmising this might be why Tomas shows the technique that way - not that I think it should be taught that way [I don't presume to teach! When asked, I tell people I'll do it for beer and I can show you everything I know in one or two sessions and no garentees that a real conga teacher won't curse me later when they meet you!]

I don't know if you've ever seen the Bobby Sanabria stuff but he uses the "cupping water from a bucket beside the drum" analogy which is highly likely to encourage that type of hitting motion.

I know exactly what is meant when referring to old habits - much of my playing consists of that

For many years I only had the one slap that was taught - left hand on skin - right hand striking out near the edge [some posts have referred to it a "cuban slap"]. When I started working on other slaps some years ago it was Mr. left that picked these up faster and better - Mr Right is still in the "Special Class".



Edited By burke on 1205845043

[zumbi]

No, just deep.

An old habit of mine - can you imagine how many girls I have already driven away because of this?

TA

:laugh: so true mr. TA!
that happened a lot too me as well...
until i realized it was only to keep the shallow ones at bay until i would meet my queen...which i eventually did, all praise to the Almighty!

really off topic, i know.
but just to show how things look different from different perspective.
peace & blessings!

[Thomas Altmann]

I don't know if you've ever seen the Bobby Sanabria stuff but he uses the "cupping water from a bucket beside the drum" analogy which is highly likely to encourage that type of hitting motion.

I think I have seen him demonstrate that in a video. All I can say is: I saw Bobby perform on drumset with the Mario Bauza Orchestra, and it was just great. Also I possess a couple of pages on the clave that he gave our drummer when he took lessons with him, and they are right on the money.

Congas ... I tell you something: He would probably outplay me because of his greater rhythmic expertise, and - last not least - because he is a very, very self-confident person; and, no matter how some people achieve that, it seems to help their drumming.

But that doesn't mean I have to adopt his technique.

Thomas

[zumbi]

...because he is a very, very self-confident person; and, no matter how some people achieve that, it seems to help their drumming.

maybe, from the height of your scholarly experience, mr. TA...you could drop that "seems".

[Thomas Altmann]

maybe, from the height of your scholarly experience, mr. TA...you could drop that "seems".

COME AWWNN! I'm just trying to be careful. By the way, if I come across too scholarly sometimes, bear in mind that I'm no native speaker; so I do not dominate the various idiomatic styles or modes as much as I do in German. Basically, I'm still trying to make myself understood.

Thomas

[zumbi]

i was joking, mr. thomas, i find your posts always extremely interesting, and your name and expertize pops out often in sites related to afro-cuban music and culture.
there's nothing wrong in being a scholar, quite the contrary...
i was just saying that, in my opinion, being self-confident do not "seems to improve someone's drumming": is a key ingredient for any decent drumming.
peace and blessings

[Thomas Altmann]

Hey zumbi,

don't worry; I don't feel offended that easily. Emails can be deceiving, and perhaps my reaction was misleading.

And yes, self confidence is a "key ingredient for any decent drumming". For anything actually. I thought about further explaining my point but decided better not to go into details concerning this matter.

Everything is: ...

Thomas

[burke]

Ohmy ... you are so right about email being easily misunderstood - I was in no manner suggesting you adopt Bobby's style!

I don't slap that way either (remember I was blathering on about changing to a flatter hand slap) ... was just intending to elaborate on my "shortcut to the slap ... maybe, perhaps that is why so many show it that way ..." theory.

[pcastag]

Hi Johnny,

regrettably I do not have a video of my playing. There is one DVD out with me playing on the Burghausen Jazz Festival with Joe Gallardo's group, and I suppose that my solo is on it, too. I haven't even seen it to this day. People told me that they had seen me on TV with it, but so far, I couldn't get a copy.

Also you probably know yourself that when you perform "in reality", you do a lot of things, technically, that you would not put on a video for your students. I find that you need a good technical foundation first - that's what you usually learn in drum lessons, and then you go out to play and better do not try to consciously duplicate what you practiced, because now you are going to play MUSIC (different ballgame). Your hours of practice rather help you subconsciously. Isn't it like that?

Maybe one day I find someone who has a digital camera and who is interested in documenting some sort of "lesson" with TA. I'm afraid it won't be Mel Bay, though.

Thomas

Hey, Joe's from here in Houston Texas! Tell him that I said hi from Liz Mendez and Angelucho if you see him, I never played with Joe as he left houston before I arrived, but the two musicians I just mentioned always speak very highly of him. As far as the dvd, I only bought volume three, I think it is excellent as you can really get inside the creativity and the style that he himself uses. I always think its good to get inside another drummers head by transcriptions etc., it always helps with ones own creativity if applied properly. As for his technique, i didn't buy it for that , I've found that my own personal studies have given me plenty to work on in that area.
Pc

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi PC,

Joe hails from Corpus Christi actually, I think. Yes, he is an amazingly complete musician. He used to play piano with Mongo Santamaria and even composed a Grammy hit for him called "Amanecer". Due to an accident he got his hand injured and switched to trombone, but he still plays great on piano. The man has a SOUND on whatever he plays. And he can write music ... as a composer and arranger he is absolutely professional and close to ingenious. At first he was more active in the South of Germany, playing with broadcasting orchestras, the "Conexion Latina" Salsa band in Munich, and had his own project called "Latino Blue". He re-constituted that band in Hamburg after having worked as first trombonist at the NDR for several years, and I joined his band in 2000, first on bongos and timbales, later on congas. Now that he's retired, he seems to be busier than ever. I'll see him in the end of April and will submit your friends' saludos.

Thomas

[pcastag]

Yeah, tell him I played a number of his charts with Angeluchos band! He musy have spent some time here in Houston, tell him also that Kido Zapata says hi, another guy from here in Houston that speaks very highly of Joe.
PC

[TONE74]

In my opinion there is no other teaching method that can compare to what was done with the Tomas Cruz dvds or books. All I have learned apart from rumba I got from these dvds. All the patterns are there with clave in the background all straight forward with no talking with the books as a reference to go back to. Easy to find relation to clave and with musical references to compare them to. The annotation in the books is also easy to read, way easier than anything else I've seen.
Maybe for profesionals like your selves the technique is not on point or whatever but for a beginner like me its perfect I would not change a thing. Also after using this system for a while you learn to make up your own stuff like splitting patterns and adding your own thing. It is also clearly stated that this is a timba geared resourse so if you don't like timba then you should be using something else. I myself like the variety in timba, thats the main thing that attracts me to it. Like I said I'm still a beginner so I'm not able to pick at it like the pros. If I met anyone that was involved with this project I would shake their hand and say thanks thats how much I like it. Peace

[bingobongo]

I agree with TONE74 - I've looked at a variety of learning material on the market but for a beginner the Tomas Cruz series is by far the best I've come across. Living in Scotland I do not have easy access to a seasoned teacher who can instruct me on proper technique and to me these dvd's are the next best thing. If there is something else out there that compares I would love to know.