Tomas Cruz Method - some criticism

[Thomas Altmann]

bingobongo & TONE74:

Living in Scotland I do not have easy access to a seasoned teacher who can instruct me on proper technique and to me these dvd's are the next best thing.

Maybe for profesionals like your selves the technique is not on point or whatever but for a beginner like me its perfect I would not change a thing.

I had bought the books to learn more about playing that Timba style, originally. Also, in order to stay up to date, I wanted to know about the material that most young conga players of today seem to use.

Especially for beginners - much more than for any established professional, it is essential to learn the proper technique, and sound articulation is the first thing you should learn on the instrument. If something like this is spread, the "professional" player you were referring to can at least derive some stylistic studies, the way Paolo explained it; but the same professional, who has spent years and decades analyzing techniques and methods in order to pass it on to the next generation, must now realize that this next generation runs the danger of being spoiled at large scale. It's like watching a mother feed her baby on Cola and Marshmallows. I suggest you to take my criticism as a hint to remain open to alternative concepts on the technical side, while on the other hand making use of all the useful things that these books have to offer - without a doubt.

It took me a while to find your postings, because the threads are not indicated on the main page anymore.

Thomas

[Joseph]

Hi Thomas
I always enjoy reading your postings.

The Tomas Cruz Cola and Marshmallow Method...kinda catchy.

It took me a while to find your postings, because the threads are not indicated on the main page anymore.

FWIW
Try clicking on "new posts" or "active topics" at the top of the main board index page. May help in finding discussions.

.......the same professional, who has spent years using the old discussion boards, must now realize that this next generation of discussion boards has arrived. I suggest you remain open to alternative concepts on the technical side, while on the other hand making use of all the useful things that these new discussion boards have to offer.

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Joseph,

The Tomas Cruz Cola and Marshmallow Method...kinda catchy.

Oh - sounds like I wasn't careful enough. I didn't say that; this would imply that Tomas tried to spoil students on purpose. I would never assume something like that!!!

Try clicking on "new posts" or "active topics" at the top of the main board index page. May help in finding discussions.

Thank you! I'll try that.

.......the same professional, who has spent years using the old discussion boards, must now realize that this next generation of discussion boards has arrived. I suggest you remain open to alternative concepts on the technical side, while on the other hand making use of all the useful things that these new discussion boards have to offer.

Again, it was not my intention to complain about anything the congaboard creators did or did not. I haven't really found out what the problem was with the old board, but to move everything to a new place must be a tremendous amount of work. I just uttered what I had realized.

Also, to me the congaboard is not its appearance on my monitor but the group of people who I know are participating. That's what makes me feel at home.

Pa'lante!

Thomas

[TONE74]

Thomas I think you make a good point about technique and learning it correctly from the beginning. I'm open to many things and I would not take the Tomasito technique as my only option. I never do that not even when reading the news or a history book. I don't follow anything blindly no matter who says it. His technique is not a total disaster plus I have other resourses ( such as Chanquito video ) that show better technique. I have seen him playing live on a video and it was different, maybe since he is teaching a pattern he is being sort of robotic who knows. But still as a source of patterns and as far as format I still haven't seen anything better. Thanks

[JohnnyConga]

Hi Thomas...luvin this discussion!...oh u could tell me anything for sure, I can never learn enough ...one of my teachers used to tell me "if your gonna steal,steal from the Best!"...so I stole from Mongo-Patato-Tata-Ray B-Candido-Peraza-Daniel Ponce-Gio-and others, including T.Cruz....and from what i have been told by others, I have a "style" of my own, though I don't hear that myself, and would say it is a combination of all the above...I can't wait for the next cat to steal from--- Thomas?..... ...Johnny Conga...

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Johnny,

fine to see everybody back on board (literally).

...and from what i have been told by others, I have a "style" of my own, though I don't hear that myself, and would say it is a combination of all the above...

That sounds very healthy to me. Now, style incorporates technique to a certain degree. But it also includes, perhaps for the biggest part, musicality, rhythmic approach, sound, touch. From what I heard from Tomas Cruz, he has a very distinct style, too; because, the way he strikes his drums, the melodic aspect gets to the foreground.
I think, most artists evolved by picking and choosing elements from other players and mixing their personal cocktail from all these ingredients. Naturally, everything sounds a little bit different from the original, and the more you let the concoction mature, the more you process it through your own playing, adding this and omitting that, the more you are developing what others may identify as your own style - in the most natural way. I find, this is the way it should be.

Whatever my style is ... I feel it isn't really accomplished; I still feel that "my style" is something yet to be developed. It all starts with having the opportunity to practice and to play as much as possible.

I can't wait for the next cat to steal from--- Thomas?.....

As I said; there's nothing highly individual in my technique (that's what we had been talking about). And the rest? I wish that I were such a canny "stealer"; I'm afraid I could never pick up things quickly enough from you in turn.

Thomas

[Joseph]

Maybe for professionals like your selves the technique is not on point or whatever but for a beginner like me its perfect I would not change a thing.

Living in Scotland I do not have easy access to a seasoned teacher who can instruct me on proper technique and to me these dvd's are the next best thing.

I’m certainly not a scholar like TA or a pro like JC.
I consider my self an intermediate amateur.
FWIW Here are a couple of other resources I use:

I found myself listlessly slogging through TC Vol 1 until I discovered Michael Spiro’s “Conga Drummer’s Guidebook”.
I can’t say enough good things about his book. The concept of “phrasing from the upbeat” gave me a whole new approach to TC’s method.

From the preface:

The purpose of this book is to teach you HOW to play afro-centric music…
There are many “method” books that can show you particular parts to rhythms from all over the Americas. But my experience is that if we don’t learn the concepts behind the music, we will never be able to play what we “know” with a good feel, or with “swing” if you will. We pretty much end up playing by rote what we learned from a book or a video, but once we’ve played that specific material, we really aren’t a better player than when we started. The goal of this text is to help you learn how to swing when you play this music, and to learn how to FEEL it “correctly”, so that you can improve your expression in addition to your knowledge

Especially for beginners - much more than for any established professional, it is essential to learn the proper technique, and sound articulation is the first thing you should learn on the instrument.

I agree wholeheartedly Thomas. It took a while for that message to sink in for me, after almost a year of fumblefreeking around thinking that speed was the thing.

A good (free!) source for sound articulation and tone separation practice is 'The “Stoned” Hand Drum' http://www.mrk-inc.com/users/fjacoby/stoned0.pdf
which is, according to author, is an adaptation (in box notation) for conga, of George Stone’s classic “Stick Control”.

I downloaded it and printed out, stuck in a ring binder, and have been working with it for about a month, religiously 20-40 minutes a day, working with an (Ipod Clave!) metronome and focusing on proper hand and tone articulation technique.

I find I have to re-read the preface / instructions periodically to keep reminding myself of how to approach them, and why I’m doing them.

Now I’m beginning to notice how much cleaner and distinct I am able to make my tones when playing a songo or marcha, for example.
It has been worth the effort.

So while I think Tomas Cruz books have much to offer (and I particularly like the text…descriptions, anecdotes on music, history, clave discussion, etc,etc)
..…and I use and practice from them regularly, I might have been stuck in a rut if they had been my only reference.

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Joseph,

Michael Spiro is famed as a teacher. I haven't heard one negative comment on his lessons, but quite a few that were more than positive (if not enthusiastic). The quote from his preface reads promising, as referred to the rhythmic component of Afro-Cuban drumming. Seems like I'd have to buy yet another book to find out whether Michael really offers a successful method to achieve what he proclaims. No easy task for sure!

The Stick Control book by George Lawrence Stone is a very versatile work - for those who can read all the diverse applications behind the R/L stickings. It is certainly one method to separate sounds and help clear articulation (before you step ahead and blur the skips again). You can also use it for floating-hand-exercises, reading each double stroke as a heel-tip-combination (triple strokes perhaps as tip-heel-tip). I wonder, however, whether you really have to plough through the first three pages, let alone the whole book, to gain the kind of facility you are striving for on a conga drum. I mean, this is snare drum literature, after all. But when you say that you are "beginning to notice how much cleaner and distinct I am able to make my tones" - that's where we are all trying to get! So obviously this one did it for you.

Anyway, thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

Thomas

[JohnnyConga]

Well I like to think i play it all right...and I THANK YOU for your kind words...I like learning as much as i can from the young and old..the day I stop learning, I'm done playing,and that ain't gonna happen as long as I can hit a drum and get a sound out of it..gonna be 60 this year and can still kick some ass...on the drum that is..... ...peace...Johnny Conga...

[Joseph]

What I like about the combination of these 3 learning sources
Tomas Cruz Series: Method: the Cuban way as presented by Tomas Cruz et al
Conga Drummers Guide Book: How the rhythms feel and how to feel them. Plenty of technique, repertoire, exercises, etc. but with a distinct emphasis of "feel" throughout. To me this is an aspect TC series lacks...or assumes you already understand.
Stoned Drum: The daily weightlifting so to speak.
From the book:

Musical knowledge is not covered here. You must obtain that in other ways.The whole purpose of these exercises is to simply build "muscle memory" and force new nervous pathways in your brain!

I wonder, however, whether you really have to plough through the first three pages, let alone the whole book, to gain the kind of facility you are striving for on a conga drum. I mean, this is snare drum literature

If you followed link you will see that this is NOT the original "Stick Control", but an adaptation for hand drummers based on GL Stone's work.

....you say that you are "beginning to notice how much cleaner and distinct I am able to make my tones"

That's a glass half full view of it, maybe I should have said "beginning to realize how inarticulate and muddy my tones were"

- that's where we are all trying to get! So obviously this one did it for you.

I'll be the first to admit I'm no master. Not even close.....intermediate. amateur.

I imagine the path to knowledge(in any subject) is, first to realize how little one knows...
...and then to set about finding the correct way to learn it.

[goingquinto]

I just downloaded that Stoned Hand Drumming pdf file. Man, are my forearms sore now. I can see that this will be a good workout tool

[tigre77]

FYI, this and similar posts led me to buy the Tomas volumes. Let me say it will fundamentally prepare a novice who sticks with the program until the moment they feel maxed out in development via the Tomas method. I say this from the perspective of someone swimming against the current and starting with no help learning cuban drums. When the time comes to seek expert lessons on conga, the Tomas student will realize during the first lesson with a pro that it will take them at least a year(?) in the best of circumstances (perfect world) to say they completed "vol I & II" and demonstrate it flawlessly.

tigre77

[kevintimba]

I'm about 2.5 years late in responding to this, but better late than never.

First of all, I find it ironic that the criticism comes from the author of the massive batá treatise to which I frequently refer, because the "odd personal" aspects of timba, and of Tomasito's style, are so directly related to batá music.

To write off Tomasito's style as simply a personal bag of tricks unworthy of being studied as a broad representation of the development of congas in the last 20 years is to miss three massive conceptual quantum leaps which have nothing to do with the personal specifics of one drummer's style. Each has a direct corollary in batá music and none has a convincing precedent in Latin dance music.

CONCEPT 1: THE SONG-SPECIFIC MARCHA - The drum part is consciously designed to relate to the melody of the song in question

CONCEPT 2: MULTI-CLAVE MARCHAS - The marcha lasts 2 or 4 claves instead of just one, and contains a musically interesting internal phrase structure

CONCEPT 3: THE ABILITY OF THE BAND TO SPONTANEOUSLY SWITCH MARCHAS IN TANDEM (aka, "gears") - The singer or lead drummer produces a signal which causes the rest of the rhythm section to switch their parts, often with a break or bloque at the beginning or end.

But wait a minute, Mr. Altmann ... am I talking about timba? Or am I talking about Abunkenke? Batá music, unlike pre-timba dance music, follows each of the three concepts to the letter.

CONCEPT 1 applied to batá: Abunkenke states and accompanies the lyrics and melody printed in the Altmann book.

CONCEPT 2 applied to batá: Abunkenke lasts 4 claves and has a very clear internal phrase structure.

CONCEPT 3 applied to batá: The transition to Abunkenke requires three separate drummers to switch to new parts in tandem. The change doesn't come after a pre-set number of bars, or according to a written chart. The Itótole must wait for the Iyá to play a rhythmic cue before switching to the new rhythm. The Iyá player could keep playing the previous road of Latopa as many times as desired - to move on to Abunkenke requires a spontaneously invoked cue, just as Tomasito's band required a hand signal from the singer to go to, for example, bomba or songo con efectos gear.

IN CONCLUSION: The book is presented as a series of specific marchas and gear changes as performed on Con la conciencia tranquila (which by way is now available very cheaply as a download from latinpulsemusic.com), but the examples are much more than transcriptions of one drummer's work on one recording. They're intended to demostrate that dance music has evolved to include the above concepts. Mr Altmann says:

"It sounds as if you find Timba the most demanding style of music that a conga player could cover. You may be right; I'm still trying to find out what this job is about at it's core. I cannot imagine that it's so different from all the other Cuban styles; I mean, it didn't come out of nowhere."

Timba most certainly did not come out of nowhere. The innovations of the 1990s are part of the same bloodline that produced the danzón innovations of the 1900s, the son innovations of the 1920s, Arsenio and Arcaño's innovations of the 1940s, Aragón and Fajardo's innovations of the 1950s or Van Van, Irakere and Ritmo Oriental's innovations of the 1970s. Timba grows organically out of all those genres but it also grows powerfully out of batá and other Afro-Cuban musical practices. The job, at its core, is about playing a pitched drum in a way to relates to the arrangement as a whole, rather than just as a producer of short generic time-keeping patterns. The job, at its core, is to be able to participate in a rhythm section that, like a batá battery, is improvising form based on cues from other members. The job, at its core, is not to learn to imitate Tomás Cruz, but to walk through the door he and others of his generation have opened and invent a new personal and group style of your own which utilizes longer, more creative marchas, and creative, spontaneous ways of switching between them.

[jorge]

Kevintimba, that was a very thought provoking post, seeing beyond the mechanics and technical to the conceptual and historical basis of timba. Maybe discussions of timba deserve their own section or thread at least, many of these ideas go well beyond one teaching method. Welcome to the forum, we look forward to some very interesting discussions.

[niallgregory]

Great post kevin .I for one enjoy the book and have learned alot from it .Lots of new movements that have totally taken me out of my comfort zone as far as marcha type playing goes . I dont know where i would use any of the rhythms tbh as i dont play timba but it inspiries me to think outside the box ..