Martillo variations at high tempo - Some impossible?
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by Charangaman » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:49 pm
Bongoceros...
So, I am still a relative beginner to this artform..
I have a solid martillo going and can build up good speed, for instance I am comfortable with a Timba or Son montuno type speed..
I can work a few of the easier variations into this high tempo music but many complex variations which I can execute well to slower stuff just seem physically impossible to pull off...
Do I work them at half speed or just practice every variation until I'm like Jack Costanzo?
So, I am still a relative beginner to this artform..
I have a solid martillo going and can build up good speed, for instance I am comfortable with a Timba or Son montuno type speed..
I can work a few of the easier variations into this high tempo music but many complex variations which I can execute well to slower stuff just seem physically impossible to pull off...
Do I work them at half speed or just practice every variation until I'm like Jack Costanzo?
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Charangaman - Posts: 312
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by onile » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:03 pm
Alafia Brother Charangaman!
I hope that you are well and in an abundance of blessings my brother!
You will most certainly get some great ideas on this forum, might I suggest that you give brother Caballoballo a PM to ask him, also Ralph seems to play bongo a little more regularly than some of us. It does help however to keep our chops up. In my studio at home (which was my family room once), I have two sets of (3) drums, a set of timbales, two sets of bongo out at all times, just to motivate me to play on each of them. Isn't drummin' fun.............. :p
Many blessings my brother, and hopefully you are having a great time playing!
Suave!
Onile!
Edited By onile on 1132769083
I hope that you are well and in an abundance of blessings my brother!
You will most certainly get some great ideas on this forum, might I suggest that you give brother Caballoballo a PM to ask him, also Ralph seems to play bongo a little more regularly than some of us. It does help however to keep our chops up. In my studio at home (which was my family room once), I have two sets of (3) drums, a set of timbales, two sets of bongo out at all times, just to motivate me to play on each of them. Isn't drummin' fun.............. :p
Many blessings my brother, and hopefully you are having a great time playing!
Suave!
Onile!
Edited By onile on 1132769083
Que Nsambi les acutare pa' siempre!
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onile - Posts: 1259
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by Charangaman » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:20 pm
onile, good evening maestro.. I hope the blessings are in much abundance in your household also!..
Indeed the drummin is the MOST fun..And keepin me warm in these freezin temperatures.. Rather than discuss by pm though.. maybe the brothers can share in open debate?..
Indeed the drummin is the MOST fun..And keepin me warm in these freezin temperatures.. Rather than discuss by pm though.. maybe the brothers can share in open debate?..
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Charangaman - Posts: 312
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by ralph » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:35 pm
a good note is to practice evrything slow, believe this is harder to do than it seems...this way you won't tense up and will be able to improve you technic and last longer...i know Giovanni starts slow speeds up then starts again..and look where he is, it can't hurt....
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ralph - Posts: 434
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by onile » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:30 pm
My apologies brother Charangaman!
It was not my intent to have you PM the two gentlemen whom I had mentioned so as not to have it discussed openly. My bad, I should have been clearer in my post, I merely was suggesting the two gentlemen to draw your post to their attention, which brother Ralph was standing at the ready!
Brother Charangaman, you and I should think about exchanging some "Charanga CDs" I have quite a few, and as was suggested in another post, I recently received "Son Primero" it is 'slammin'!
All is well!
Many blessings!
Onile!
Edited By onile on 1132774248
It was not my intent to have you PM the two gentlemen whom I had mentioned so as not to have it discussed openly. My bad, I should have been clearer in my post, I merely was suggesting the two gentlemen to draw your post to their attention, which brother Ralph was standing at the ready!
Brother Charangaman, you and I should think about exchanging some "Charanga CDs" I have quite a few, and as was suggested in another post, I recently received "Son Primero" it is 'slammin'!
All is well!
Many blessings!
Onile!
Edited By onile on 1132774248
Que Nsambi les acutare pa' siempre!
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onile - Posts: 1259
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by Charangaman » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:58 pm
No apologies necessary my brother, hopefully the great bongoceros of this page will gravitate here naturally...
I am mad for any Charanga you can suggest, it is hard to find in London, since Mr Bongo's shut down..
Big up onile!
I am mad for any Charanga you can suggest, it is hard to find in London, since Mr Bongo's shut down..
Big up onile!
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Charangaman - Posts: 312
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by JohnnyConga » Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:26 pm
I would recommend Trevor Salloum's Bongo Books...They are very informative and u can learn a lot from them... U do know that there are NO bongos used in a "Charanga" setting. Instead u would more likely play guiro, or clave, instead....goto Trevors site..just Google his name....My favorite Bongo player is "Tony Fuentes" formerly of Ray Baretto's band and the unknown bongo player on the Joe Cuba early albums(50;s 60;s)...."JC" Johnny Conga... 
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JohnnyConga - Posts: 3825
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by ralph » Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:53 pm
onile wrote:Brother Charangaman, you and I should think about exchanging some "Charanga CDs" I have quite a few, and as was suggested in another post, I recently received "Son Primero" it is 'slammin'!
If i may interject...."Son Primero" is slammin and is a must...
also recently got a charanga by "Charanga La Tapa" very nicely done...the timbal work is great on both cd's, primarily because you have Charlie Santiago on timbal...
On Son Primero you have Willie Garcia on vocals who does a knockout job...then on Charanga La Tapa...you have Hector Tempo Alomar i believe and Pupy Torres the ex lead singers for Conjunto Libre...great work...also on La Tapa you have Charlie Rodriguez on tres which isn't typical in a charanga format, but it sounds good to me, a Hansel and Raul production....
Charangaman you may know this already but if you want to order music in the states you may want to check out
http://www.museodeldisco.com/
http://www.musicadelrecuerdo.com/
http://www.descarga.com/
http://www.casalatinamusic.com/
for all you latin music needs...if you don't already know
Ralph
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ralph - Posts: 434
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by onile » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:01 pm
Alafia brother Ralph!
Disculpa! my memory isn't quite what it used to be, so it WAS you who suggested Son Primero to me, great call mi pana!
As for Charanga La Tapa, yo! that's like the ol'school Salsa music of the 70's, long instrumentals and rich coros and solos throughout! I listen to Charanga La Tapa's "Oriente", "Vamonos Pa'l Monte" and "Pon Me la Mano", the rest of the CD is incredibly cool!
That one is definitly a full meal deal for Charanga lovers!
Suave!
Onile!
Disculpa! my memory isn't quite what it used to be, so it WAS you who suggested Son Primero to me, great call mi pana!
As for Charanga La Tapa, yo! that's like the ol'school Salsa music of the 70's, long instrumentals and rich coros and solos throughout! I listen to Charanga La Tapa's "Oriente", "Vamonos Pa'l Monte" and "Pon Me la Mano", the rest of the CD is incredibly cool!
That one is definitly a full meal deal for Charanga lovers!
Suave!
Onile!
Que Nsambi les acutare pa' siempre!
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onile - Posts: 1259
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by caballoballo » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:50 pm
Hola hermanos,
Charanga, I agreed with Ralph,start slow,warm up and practice at least 3 times a week. That is my recipe,some times I just play without any music to check the slaps or to try to incorporate a rythm that is playing in my mine in to the clave and then I play with the music. One Idea I been thinking is to record the Clave pattern for at least 10 minutes and then play in and out of the martillo pattern as you do when you play your Bongó with a band. That way you will always be on clave. If you are comfortable,start with some montuno which is slow and your pattern in and out of the martillo have to be precise,then after you have warm up,speed up a little with other type of music until you can get those rythms you want into the up tempo,select a good red wine so you can add some relaxation and flavor. Like I said,it is a matter of many hours of practice,yesterday I did 2 hours or more,I rehearse every song we play in the Band at least twice. Pa' encima
Charanga, I agreed with Ralph,start slow,warm up and practice at least 3 times a week. That is my recipe,some times I just play without any music to check the slaps or to try to incorporate a rythm that is playing in my mine in to the clave and then I play with the music. One Idea I been thinking is to record the Clave pattern for at least 10 minutes and then play in and out of the martillo pattern as you do when you play your Bongó with a band. That way you will always be on clave. If you are comfortable,start with some montuno which is slow and your pattern in and out of the martillo have to be precise,then after you have warm up,speed up a little with other type of music until you can get those rythms you want into the up tempo,select a good red wine so you can add some relaxation and flavor. Like I said,it is a matter of many hours of practice,yesterday I did 2 hours or more,I rehearse every song we play in the Band at least twice. Pa' encima
Josean
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caballoballo - Posts: 1043
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by Raymond » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:20 pm
To play fast tempo songs, i.e., mambos, and some music like "paso dobles", "seis chorrea"..comes with experience and proficiency. There is a way to "cheat" in the martillo when you do this fast ones..and is my missing some of the double eighth notes in the macho and just doing it in eight notes
I play a lot of Puerto Rico jibaro (country) music gigs and recording that has those fast tempos. To do improvisations while playing the martillos takes profeciency and you need to be "warm"...
Practice, practice, practice. First concentrate in the martillo and then play with the improvisations which have to be calculated so you do not fall out of tempo.
Saludos!
I play a lot of Puerto Rico jibaro (country) music gigs and recording that has those fast tempos. To do improvisations while playing the martillos takes profeciency and you need to be "warm"...
Practice, practice, practice. First concentrate in the martillo and then play with the improvisations which have to be calculated so you do not fall out of tempo.
Saludos!
- Raymond
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by Charangaman » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:36 pm
Raymond, caballballo,
Brothers thank you greatly for your invaluble input.. You guys have got to the main rub of what was asking - I probably articulated the question badly..
The eighth note "cheat" sounds just the thing for these real fast numbers... Because we all have our limits right? If you raise the tempo enough some complex moves are just physically impossible to pull off effectivley at least..
Brothers thank you greatly for your invaluble input.. You guys have got to the main rub of what was asking - I probably articulated the question badly..
The eighth note "cheat" sounds just the thing for these real fast numbers... Because we all have our limits right? If you raise the tempo enough some complex moves are just physically impossible to pull off effectivley at least..
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Charangaman - Posts: 312
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by Raymond » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:12 am
The "cheat" I am talking about it, I do it when I am tire. (Normally in the last songs). The important thing is that in that martillo you have that "hembra" hit in the right place.
The style you have to do the martillo has something to do with it. In case you have not notice, and I think we have discussed this in some thread, there is the traditional old style martillo when you muffle "dramatically" and hit with with your index the macho at the beginning of the martillo, and there is the more modern style that that the sounds is practically all eighth notes in the martillo pattern. (The latter sounds more of a continuity, the original has the first beat of the eighth note more silent and the hit with the index finger that is the second hit of the first double eighth bar more accentuated giving it a different sound).
Why I tell you this...because for some people that have a traditional martillo it takes them awhile to develop speed to keep up in fast tempo. I started with a traditional martillo but have "move" into a more modern martillo sound.
Don't worry. If you keep on playing you will develop the speed and the proficiency to deal with very fast tempo. A good exercise, and that is how I did it, is to start practicing doing the martilo as fast as you can so you feel comfortable. Then, try to do improvisations while doing that fast martillo..(This is when the fun beging). If you can keep up withough falling out of pattern or clave you are good to go. (Practice thinking in Perez Prado's I think Mambo No. 5, his most famous that is a fast song).
Eventually your hands will be fast and you will be able to do it.
Saludos!
The style you have to do the martillo has something to do with it. In case you have not notice, and I think we have discussed this in some thread, there is the traditional old style martillo when you muffle "dramatically" and hit with with your index the macho at the beginning of the martillo, and there is the more modern style that that the sounds is practically all eighth notes in the martillo pattern. (The latter sounds more of a continuity, the original has the first beat of the eighth note more silent and the hit with the index finger that is the second hit of the first double eighth bar more accentuated giving it a different sound).
Why I tell you this...because for some people that have a traditional martillo it takes them awhile to develop speed to keep up in fast tempo. I started with a traditional martillo but have "move" into a more modern martillo sound.
Don't worry. If you keep on playing you will develop the speed and the proficiency to deal with very fast tempo. A good exercise, and that is how I did it, is to start practicing doing the martilo as fast as you can so you feel comfortable. Then, try to do improvisations while doing that fast martillo..(This is when the fun beging). If you can keep up withough falling out of pattern or clave you are good to go. (Practice thinking in Perez Prado's I think Mambo No. 5, his most famous that is a fast song).
Eventually your hands will be fast and you will be able to do it.
Saludos!
- Raymond
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by Charangaman » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:31 am
I can really use this great advice, thanks again Raymond..
The punchy Hembra sound is a difficult one to maintain at these speeds but I am getting there.. The Mambo's are extremely fast and I have been trying to play along with "Que rico el Mambo"... Lasting the whole song is tough!
Another tune, Jack Costanzo's "Bongo jam" has the fastest martillo I have ever heard - I don't think I can ever be that fast
I will try ...
The punchy Hembra sound is a difficult one to maintain at these speeds but I am getting there.. The Mambo's are extremely fast and I have been trying to play along with "Que rico el Mambo"... Lasting the whole song is tough!
Another tune, Jack Costanzo's "Bongo jam" has the fastest martillo I have ever heard - I don't think I can ever be that fast
I will try ...
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Charangaman - Posts: 312
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