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I understand that in an afro-cuban or salsa music orchestra the Clave pattern can be either explicit (if there is for example a claves player) or implicit, ie more "hidden" (and btw most difficult to discover for a beginner like me) but still there.

The Martillo I believe, is made of 8 beats (each 1/8th of a note), regularly spaced over one bar.
The Clave is 5 beats "irregularly" spaced over 2 bars (ie 3 beats in bar one, 2 beats in bar two, for the 3-2 style).

Now suppose one is playing solo the Martillo on bongos. Since the Martillo is 8 beats regularly spaced, how would the Martillo pattern obey or conform with the Clave rhythm ? How could one discover that the played Martillo pattern is indeed in some sort of "compliance" with the Clave pattern ?

In other words, how can one play the Martillo on bongo drums, in a manner that express the Clave pattern ?

Hello.
I'll try to find some time later on to give you a longer answer, but you can already try to listen to latin songs with bongó solos or at least bongó variations while clapping the clave pattern with your hands (or playing with real claves, but it could bother your family and/or neighbours... ).

Listening and listening. And listening.

As mentioned in another post, recordings of Arsenio Rodríguez with Papa Kila, Cachao with Yeyito, Machito with José Mangual, Tito Puente with Johnny "Dandy" Rodríguez, Fania All Stars with Roberto Roena, and so many others. Everything is there. Clap the clave along, and/or try to play a "straight" martillo along, and you will see the light...

Chtimulato wrote:Listening and listening. And listening.
...
As mentioned in another post, recordings of Arsenio Rodríguez with Papa Kila, Cachao with Yeyito, Machito with José Mangual, Tito Puente with Johnny "Dandy" Rodríguez, Fania All Stars with Roberto Roena, and so many others. Everything is there. Clap the clave along, and/or try to play a "straight" martillo along, and you will see the light...

Thanks ! I'll try.
Sill, I thought of this, could it be that the martillo pattern will reflect the Clave (3-2) if I accent:
martillo bar :
martilllo beat 1
martilllo beat (2 And)
martilllo beat 4
martillo repeat bar:
martilllo beat 2
martilllo beat 3

And then cycle it. But even if this is correct, it seems easier said than done ...

Hmm... I would say "no". Try to focus on the straight, regular martillo, then on a few variations once you know them. And then on more variations once you hear or find some. What you suggest could be played as a solo phrase, but only once or twice in my eyes.

Let's wait for the other colleagues' suggestions.

Ok, for the kind members here: please consider these 2 tracks below. The first one by Ray Barretto, I believe is based on Clave 3-2. Is that correct ?
The second one by Tito Puente, so far I can't tell the Clave (btw percussions get really wild after 4:45). Is there a Clave basis on that track ?
Thanks !!

Acid is a descarga (a jam session, a collective improvisation). There's no melody, just the harmonical and rhythmical support of the bass. The other instruments improvise one at a time. I think the clave is just here as a reference (I could be wrong).
TiMonBo is in 2/3 clave. You'll recognize it when you're used to it. Try to clap the clave while listening to it. If it sounds correct, normal, you're correct. If it sounds weird, you're "cruzado", wrong.

I advised you, and still advise, to listen to some classic latin tunes and to clap the clave along. First select some where the clave is actually played. Then, once you get used to it, try to guess the clave when it is not played. And also listen to the other instruments and vocals.
First of all, you've got to discover how the percussionnists interact : the bongosero, the conguero and the timbalero play together. Learn when the bongosero switches to campana for instance. And when conguero and timbalero modify their patterns.
Listen how the piano plays specific parts. How the coro (background vocals) is "laid" on the clave. Try to sing along while playing the clave (which I am unable to do ! )
Try to discover it by yourself, and then tell us.

Per the suggestions kindly given to me I have listened to a lot of salsa and afro cuban music. Salsa/latin music is difficult for me to analyze rhythmically since the sound is so layered and with such an abundance of different instruments/tonalities involved. This is why I tried to focus on latin jazz, which to my ear is more "sparse" (and also from personal affinity). But all the same, despite numerous listenings, I believe I haven't made perceivable or sufficient progress…

The crux of my OP is:
Let's suppose one is playing bongos (or for that matter another percussion instrument) alone. Suppose one is playing a basic pattern like the martillo. Suppose now that somebody comes in the room with claves and start playing a 3-2 or 2-3 Son Clave rhythm.

My question boils down to: how one will now sync the played martillo to the Clave rhythm ?

Well, considering the 3-2 Clave in 4/4:


I am at present looking at the way(s) I can sync my 4 martillo beats to these notes. This I believe, may be the "light" Chtimulato is talking about ...

The "regular" martillo fits only with the 4/4 clave. Which doesn't mean there's no bongó on a 6/8 or 12/8 tune, but it's playing something else.

As I said in another answer, the matching of clave and martillo is a matter of habit. You've got to listen and listen to get used to it.
To answer your question, a clave player who wants to suddenly "jump in" has to know the martillo pattern (logical). And a bongó player (like every other musician, not only in latin music) has got to know "where he is" while playing. And if he plays variations when the clave player wants to "jump in", the clave player's got to know the played variations, or at least listen to the other instruments.

Try to play the clave while listening to these tunes :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sJyaGf3mQE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVt2by_EOT4

There are tons of others, but I had these two in mind by now.

As a beginning, just the clave along. Then, when you feel it, try the regular martillo. The variations will come later on, don't worry. Once you can play the regular martillo, you'll discover them.
If you can film yourself with a phone or a camera and post it here, we can tell you more. Which will never be as good as a "real life" teacher, but will be better than nothing.

Chtimulato wrote:The "regular" martillo fits only with the 4/4 clave. Which doesn't mean there's no bongó on a 6/8 or 12/8 tune, but it's playing something else.

As I said in another answer, the matching of clave and martillo is a matter of habit. You've got to listen and listen to get used to it.
To answer your question, a clave player who wants to suddenly "jump in" has to know the martillo pattern (logical). And a bongó player (like every other musician, not only in latin music) has got to know "where he is" while playing. And if he plays variations when the clave player wants to "jump in", the clave player's got to know the played variations, or at least listen to the other instruments.

Try to play the clave while listening to these tunes :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sJyaGf3mQE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVt2by_EOT4

There are tons of others, but I had these two in mind by now.

As a beginning, just the clave along. Then, when you feel it, try the regular martillo. The variations will come later on, don't worry. Once you can play the regular martillo, you'll discover them.
If you can film yourself with a phone or a camera and post it here, we can tell you more. Which will never be as good as a "real life" teacher, but will be better than nothing.

Thanks a lot Chtimulato !!
Now, let's reverse the whole thing and suppose the claves player is playing the Clave first (say Clave 3 - 2), and then comes the bongos player. At what stage of the Clave pattern will the bongos player jump in ?

Usually on the "one", which should be here the first note of the pattern (the dotted one). According to the way the clave pattern is written down here, you'll have to play the whole martillo pattern twice to match with the clave.
Never mind.

Here is something I wrote down during a masterclass some... 25 years ago.
It's the regular martillo pattern (in French), written down with the onomatopeia taught to the Cuban kids when they learn to play bongó, "pi-ca-pa-no-pi-ca-tum" (1 & 2 & 3 & 4) :
[img][img]http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/thumb/1579124419.jpg[/img][/img]

Try to sing it along while playing, it can help a lot.

I forgot : the square is the right hand, and the dot the left one.

Chtimulato wrote:Usually on the "one", which should be here the first note of the pattern (the dotted one). According to the way the clave pattern is written down here, you'll have to play the whole martillo pattern twice to match with the clave.
Never mind.

Here is something I wrote down during a masterclass some... 25 years ago.
It's the regular martillo pattern (in French), written down with the onomatopeia taught to the Cuban kids when they learn to play bongó, "pi-ca-pa-no-pi-ca-tum" (1 & 2 & 3 & 4) :
[img][img]http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/thumb/1579124419.jpg[/img][/img]

Try to sing it along while playing, it can help a lot.

Chtimulato wrote:I forgot : the square is the right hand, and the dot the left one.

Thanks for your reply and the drawing !

What I did try with my bongos, (and to my ears it sounds quite good) is this, using the 4/4 score for the Clave 3-2 I posted earlier:

Clave 1 st note (doted 1/8th note) ---- >Martillo beat 1
Clave 3rd note (the first 1/8th note) ----> Martillo beat 2
Clave 4th note (the second 1/8th note) -----> Martillo beat 3
Clave 5th note (the quarter note) ----> Martillo beat 4

Now using a 2-3 Clave the sequence would be (I tried this too, and I like it too ):
Clave 1 st note (1/8th note) ----> Martillo beat 1
Clave 3rd note (the quarter note) ----> Martillo beat 2
Clave 4th note (the doted 1/8th note) -----> Martillo beat 3
Clave 5th note (the 1/8th note) ----> Martillo beat 4

In essence, I am "ignoring" the Clave 1/16th note in my bongos playing the Martillo. Also that way, if I set the BPM for the Clave near 125, one Martillo full sequence equals one Clave full sequence.

No, you're wrong, sorry. You've got to play TWO whole martillo patterns to "fill" the clave pattern.
If the clave is written like this


(what I copied from your other thread), you've got to play the martillo pattern twice (like I wrote it down), so twice this phrase :


And if the clave is written like above on this thread, you'll also have to play the martillo pattern twice, but it would be written differently.

I'll try to make a small video this weekend if I find the time. But I don't promise.

Chtimulato wrote:No, you're wrong, sorry. You've got to play TWO whole martillo patterns to "fill" the clave pattern.

Thanks !
So if it is the claves that are playing first, the Clave rhythm speed will dictate the speed of the Martillo (so that 2x Martillo for 1 Clave). And if the bongo player is playing first, the claves player coming after would have to adapt his claves playing (so that one full Clave pattern for 2x Martillo).

Is this correct ?

Yes, of course.
But everybody (instruments, singers) is "laying" on the clave and follows the tempo. Or the clave player follows the tempo of the others. The idea is to play together...