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Hello everyone!

I am new to the forum and this is my first post, so first of all thanks to the whole community for all the knowledge that you have shared here over the years. Congaplace is the best!

I have the following problem. Two days days ago I mounted a new skin on the hembra of my 90s Meinl Marathon bongó. I ordered the skin from Banux (http://www.banux.de), white cattle (cow, I guess) with polymer treatment in 1,2 - 1,6 mm thickness. It is a very nice skin, even thickness and quite smooth. After drying it is now just over 2 mm thick, which is exactly what I was looking for. A big thanks to Mike for the helpful advice!

After mounting the skin, I tightened the lugs evenly with small tension and let it dry off. Everything looked fine. However, I am now having a hard time tuning the drum, as two opposite lugs have over a half tone higher pitch than the other two. If we number the lugs going around the drum as 1,2,3,4, then lugs 1 and 3 have both the same pitch but different than lugs 2 and 4, which have both the same pitch as well. So when I try to tune all lugs evenly in pitch, it gets really unbalanced on the tuning lugs (the nut has to go about 5 mm higher on two of the lugs). That doesn't look good, and I fear that the drum might get damaged if I keep it tuned like that.

I don't know if it's because the drum is out of round (which would be strange on both sides symmetrically, I think) or if I did or am doing something wrong.

Has anybody had the same problem or does anybody have a solution? Any suggestions will be much appreciated, since I am a quite confused right now.

Also: how long do you think it will take the skin to fully break in?

Thanks in advance!

Hello.

Breaking in will depend on how much you play the instrument. I can't give you a more precise answer, sorry. Others members could maybe answer better than me.

I first suggest you to check, with a tape measure, if the shell is really out ouf round, slightly or not. If it is, you can either take the skin off and let sit the shell for a while if it's just slighlty out of round (unless you only own one bongó and need it). Or try to fix it, with some dowels inside for instance. There are techniques for that. Or just turn the skin with a 1/4 of turn : 1 on 2, 2 on 3, ... This worked once for me at least.

You can also resoak the skin for about 45 minutes (upside down in a sink, with water in it, but not till the flesh hoop, and water outside too, but, there again, not till the flesh hoop). And then remount it and tune again, slowly. 1/4 or 1/2 turn every 2 hours till you get the note you want. Or untune the drum and put a wet towel on the skin. There again, give 1/4 or 1/2 turn every 2 hours till you get to the right note.

And as a conclusion : it's better to have an unbalanced crown with evenly tuned lugs than the opposite. It's just a matter of aesthetics, and what you want is a well tuned instrument, not only a nice looking instrument. 5 mm is not so bad, it could be worse.

Thanks for your suggestions, Chtimulato!

I took out the skin and measured the shell. It seems to be alright, no significant out-of-roundness. I tried out turning the skin 90° as you suggested, and I just had the same problem, only shifted by 90°. So that makes me think that it has to do with the head (skin or maybe flesh hoop), definitely not the shell.

I'll try rewetting or resoaking and see what happens.

First of all congrats to successfully mounting that skin,
looking good and I am happy I could be of help.
Breaking in a hembra really needs time and patience, much longer than a macho skin.
Half a year or so later it will sound much better, believe me.
But of course you can also now wet (remove skin, turn it upside down in a table top, fill appr. 1 cm of water in and let it soak for 1-2 hrs and remount the skin if you are not content.
Just my 2 cents.

First, that looks like a nice skin and you did a beautiful job mounting it. Even so, it sounds like you tuned up the bongo very soon after mounting the skin. Two days is usually not enough to let the skin fully dry in the area where the skin is doubled over between the rim and the shell. Very little airflow there makes it take longer to dry, especially with thicker skins that make that space very tight. The tension on the skin is at its highest in the area between the shell and the rim, so you want to make sure it is totally dry there before you tune the drum up. I usually wait at least 3-5 days after mounting a skin (depending on temperature and humidity), then before tuning the drum up I take the skin off and feel whether the skin is still damp anywhere around the inside. It should be bone dry. I would check that area to see if the skin is overstretched or damaged anywhere around that area. It would be more opaque, thinner or softer if it had been overstretched while wet. In particular, look carefully at the areas that correspond to the lower pitch diameter, like at lugs 1 and 3 (or 2 and 4).
I hope I am wrong.

Thanks, Mike and Jorge.

jorge wrote:Even so, it sounds like you tuned up the bongo very soon after mounting the skin. Two days is usually not enough to let the skin fully dry in the area where the skin is doubled over between the rim and the shell. Very little airflow there makes it take longer to dry, especially with thicker skins that make that space very tight. The tension on the skin is at its highest in the area between the shell and the rim, so you want to make sure it is totally dry there before you tune the drum up.

I'm afraid that you are right and that might have been the cause of the problem. I have also waited longer in the past (I had only mounted a few thinner skins before) , but this skin seemed to dry much faster. I think it has to do with the polymer treatment, which is also supposed to be kind of water-repellent. Also, the weather is quite dry here these days. But yes, it might have been not 100% dry between the shell and the rim.

jorge wrote:I would check that area to see if the skin is overstretched or damaged anywhere around that area. It would be more opaque, thinner or softer if it had been overstretched while wet. In particular, look carefully at the areas that correspond to the lower pitch diameter, like at lugs 1 and 3 (or 2 and 4).
I hope I am wrong.

I checked and I couldn't find any signs of overstretching, so hopefully it's not too bad. I put a wet towel on the untuned drum for about 2 hours, now I'm letting it dry while correcting the tuning every 2 hours or so. Let's see if it gets any better.

Hi everybody, welcome Siete Leguas -

to tell you the truth, my drum heads almost never sound exactly the same over each single lug. We are not dealing with definite-pitch timpani here. This is "untuned percussion", in the nomenclature of European musicology (!). What I am striving for is a harmonic all-around sound of the entire drum, where crosswise differences just add harmonic partials. Of course, it should not sound like two different drums when you play one with both hands; that's too much.

If you don't like what you're hearing, it could as well be the drum, especially the shell ... too thin? ... inferior wood?

Grüße aus dem Norden,
Thomas

P.S.: The diameter of the drum in relation to the rim is another deciding factor. One millimeter can make a lot of a difference. If I look at your hembra closely, the angle of the head over the edge of the drum is like 90 degrees, and that's pretty sharp. The sound properties are not necessarily worse than with a smoother angle, because the Armando Peraza model of LP's beechwood Valje line has such a sharp angle, too, and the bongo sounds fantastic. (It just kills the hides too soon.) But the physical result is that, if you are tuning up, you are actually stretching the collar of the skin more immediately than the membrane surface.

TA

Thomas' last remark about the sharp bearing edge reminds me me this : you can rub a small amount of shea butter, or wax (of a candle) on the bearing edge, to make the tuning smoother.

Thomas is right, there is not the absolute necessity of even tones around the skin, that is rather a relative factor. As long as it sounds good - fine!

I have just checked on the Banux skins of my Natal Fiberglass bongó: especially on the hembra there are two slightly different tones when you tap the skin near the time, but the sound when being played is just as punchy, dry and full as you want it.



P. S.: Like Chtimulato said, I always apply some beeswax, oil, sheabutter or the like as a lubricant on bearing edges when mounting a skin. Makes tuning easier and the skin's life longer I believe

... you can rub a small amount of shea butter, or wax (of a candle) on the bearing edge, to make the tuning smoother.

... I always apply some beeswax, oil, sheabutter or the like as a lubricant on bearing edges when mounting a skin. Makes tuning easier and the skin's life longer I believe

Old German timpani teachers suggest deer tallow (Hirschtalg), and that's what I use.

Thomas

P.S.: If you should try that, use it sparsely, because this substance is soaked up by the skin as if it realizes it's affinity, and softens it more than you want.

Old German timpani teachers suggest deer tallow (

Nice tip.
Since Siete Leguas is "ein Landsmann" of yours, he should be able to find some too.

If you should try that, use it sparsely [...]

That's why I typed "a small amount".

Hi guys, thanks for your feedback!

I tried rewetting the skin with a wet towel and things got a little bit better. However, I wasn't completely satisfied and I decided to resoak the skin for a while, as some of you suggested (upside down, about 1 cm water inside and water on the outside too). If it gets another little bit better, I think I can live with that!

I agree that the tuning doesn't need to be exactly the same over each lug for a drum to sound well. That makes even more sense for my hembra drum, as I mostly play the hembra with my whole hand (or better said, with all fingers), and the sound is therefore dryer and a bit muffled anyway, unlike 1-finger "open tones". But still, I would like to tune it as clean as possible, obviously without risking damaging the mechanical parts.

Thomas Altmann wrote: The diameter of the drum in relation to the rim is another deciding factor. One millimeter can make a lot of a difference. If I look at your hembra closely, the angle of the head over the edge of the drum is like 90 degrees, and that's pretty sharp. The sound properties are not necessarily worse than with a smoother angle, because the Armando Peraza model of LP's beechwood Valje line has such a sharp angle, too, and the bongo sounds fantastic. (It just kills the hides too soon.) But the physical result is that, if you are tuning up, you are actually stretching the collar of the skin more immediately than the membrane surface.

That's interesting, I had never thought of that effect. So, in general, the thicker the skin, the sharper the angle, therefore more stress for the skin itself (as well as for other parts of the drum), right?

One question about the lubricant on the bearing edge: do you apply it right before mounting a wet skin, or only when the skin is dry, i.e. take the skin off, apply it on the bearing edge and then tune it up? For the moment I have some candle wax at home that I could use.

Chtimulato wrote: Since Siete Leguas is "ein Landsmann" of yours, he should be able to find some too.

I am actually Spanish, but after seven years living in this nice country, I am slowly becoming a little "eingedeutscht". At least enough to be able to go to the store and ask for some Hirschtalg, I hope.

I'll post about the results of the resoaking. This time I will make sure that the skin is completely dry before tuning it up, though.

Salud!

Hi Siete Leguas,

So, in general, the thicker the skin, the sharper the angle, therefore more stress for the skin itself (as well as for other parts of the drum), right?

Not necessarily. A thicker skin can endure more stress. Also, some drums are built so that there is still enough room between the shell and a wider hoop and rim to maintain easy tuning (the floating head effect). Also, you can minimize the tuning problem by keeping the collar narrow and heighten the position of the crown (rim) - of course not so high that it protrudes above the head surface; you don't want to hurt your fingers.

One question about the lubricant on the bearing edge: do you apply it right before mounting a wet skin, or only when the skin is dry, i.e. take the skin off, apply it on the bearing edge and then tune it up? For the moment I have some candle wax at home that I could use.

- Before placing the wet skin on the drum! And once you take a dried mounted head off the drum, you better moisten it again before placing it back on the drum to ensure a tight and comfortable fit. Taking a natural skin off and putting it on again really stresses the skin's texture over the edges. For the same reason you should not detune the drum to a degree where the head becomes slack. Always keep some amount of tension on it. It should still sound like a drum, only mas bajo.

@Chtimulato:

That's why I typed "a small amount".

I was referring specifically to deer tallow, not to grease in general. Even if my hands come in contact with that stuff, my skin becomes as soft as a baby's butt!

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Thomas Altmann wrote: A thicker skin can endure more stress. Also, some drums are built so that there is still enough room between the shell and a wider hoop and rim to maintain easy tuning (the floating head effect). Also, you can minimize the tuning problem by keeping the collar narrow and heighten the position of the crown (rim) - of course not so high that it protrudes above the head surface; you don't want to hurt your fingers.

Good to learn about those collar angle issues. I like to mount the skins with a rather high rim anyway, now I have one more reason to do so, then. In the case of my hembra, though, I couldn't have gone much higher, since, after tuning up, the rim was only 3-4 mm lower than the edge of the drum. I think you were mentioning that in general, if I understand it right. The sharp angle on my drum is due to the limitations of 1) the dimensions of the shell and the rim and 2) my choice of skin thickness, if I also understand it right. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thomas Altmann wrote: - Before placing the wet skin on the drum! And once you take a dried mounted head off the drum, you better moisten it again before placing it back on the drum to ensure a tight and comfortable fit. Taking a natural skin off and putting it on again really stresses the skin's texture over the edges. For the same reason you should not detune the drum to a degree where the head becomes slack. Always keep some amount of tension on it. It should still sound like a drum, only mas bajo.

Also good to know. I have been abusing my conga heads for a long time, then.

By "moisten it again" here, do you mean apply some water to the head (with a wet towel, for example) or apply some lubricant (deer tallow, etc.) on the bearing edge, or both?

Thomas Altmann wrote:Even if my hands come in contact with that stuff, my skin becomes as soft as a baby's butt!

Good morning!

By "moisten it again" here, do you mean apply some water to the head (with a wet towel, for example) or apply some lubricant (deer tallow, etc.) on the bearing edge, or both?

A wet towel is good. I only moisten the edges of the head, then put it on the drum, fasten the screws and make sure the skin is completely dry before tuning up. How wet it should be (not as wet as when you mount it on the hoop), how much pull you want to give it when fastening the screws, or whether you apply more grease to the bearing edges, is a matter of instinct.

Thomas