History sub-forum - For debate and learning

Let's discuss about the origin and history of this beautiful instrument...

Postby pcastag » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:18 pm

As far as I know, the oldest city in west africa was djen djenno, I remember reading an article in NG about it, dates back to like 200 AD or something ( maybe BC) Still there, it's on an island I think in the niger river or delta.
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Postby Master2987 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:18 pm

Hi all,

I just read the entire thread and have some questions.

First, I know there is much debate about the racial make-up of the ancient Egyptians and Nubians. In fact now that the mummy of king Tut is touring America there have been various protests outside of the museums, primarily demanding that king Tut be recognized as African, along with the ancient Egyptian language, which in general is categorized as Indo-European (or something like that).

If the Egypt of the modern era (the last few hundred years or so) is not "black", what leads people to believe that it was or may have been in ancient times?

A few postings above I read that ancient Egypt was a multi ethnic society, which implies that it had been in contact with other cultures. Does that also include the sub-Saharan cultures? If so, that leads me to my last question...

When two cultures first meet, there is an immediate flow/exchange of knowledge. Things like words, weapons, and technologies always move back and forth. If such influence was wide-spread in the African continent, why were the sub-Saharan cultures not on the same page? As far as I know they did not have written languages, did not use advanced steel weapons, or use domesticated horses for work or war, all of which had been used in the Middle East for thousands of years.

If someone can please school me on these topics, thank you.
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Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:05 am

Master2987 wrote:1.
..the mummy of king Tut is touring America there have been various protests outside of the museums, primarily demanding that king Tut be recognized as African, along with the ancient Egyptian language, which in general is categorized as Indo-European (or something like that).

2.
If the Egypt of the modern era (the last few hundred years or so) is not "black", what leads people to believe that it was or may have been in ancient times?

3.
A few postings above I read that ancient Egypt was a multi ethnic society, which implies that it had been in contact with other cultures. Does that also include the sub-Saharan cultures? If so, that leads me to my last question...

If such influence was wide-spread in the African continent, why were the sub-Saharan cultures not on the same page? As far as I know they did not have written languages, did not use advanced steel weapons, or use domesticated horses for work or war, all of which had been used in the Middle East for thousands of years.

Master2987,
I think that Berimbau is best equiped to handle your questions, but in the meantime, I'll stick my neck out and give it a shot.

Egypt is in Africa, a fact that historically has been ignored by Euro-centric writers.
1.
Linguistics can defintely be politicaized. I've never heard of any connection between the ancient Egyptian language and any sub-Saharan tongue. That's probably because there is no connection.
2.
Aside from the age of the Nubian pharaohs, I understand that the Egypt monarchy was of Semitic origin. While they were more dark skinned than Europeans, they were not an ethnic group that people typically refer to as "back". We don't consider modern Arabs to be "black" either.
3.
Why isn't there evidence of ancient Egyptian culture in sub-Saharan Africa? I'll take a guess that it's because ancient Egyptian culture had little influrnce in sub-Saharan Africa. The Sahara was probably a formidable barrier.
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Postby Berimbau » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:18 am

Well I'm back from a yummy South Indian meal with my lovely wife, so before I hit the hay I'll weigh in on this again. My background is in anthropology ansd ethnomusicology, with a focus on the cultural dimensions of the Central African Diaspora. Along the way I did take some coursework in Egyptology, not enough to be an expert, mind you, but enough to be quite annoyed at the assumptions being posted here. Now Eurocentric thought, like Afrocentric thought, is a closed shop. Anyone with an open mind can recognise that such narrow political or racist ideologies do not make for decent scholarship. The history of our planet is filled with multi-cultural, multi-ethnic histories that converge then diverge again and again over time. The Kushite Kingdom of Egypt was one such example, being ruled by sub-Saharan invaders from the South. They were Negroid people, or "Black" if you would. Egypt was also ruled at times by Caucasoid folks as well. Again, it was multi-ethnic society.
But that's not what really drives this debate. Dubious scholars, also of multi-ethnic origins, have made Egypt a battleground for neo-academic debate. It's fairly obvious why some racist Europeans have weighed in on this, they hate anything "Black," so what is driving the Afro-Centric end of it? Some African peoples, long subugated and marginalized by racist Europeans, psychologically seek approval and recognition from their oppressors. The oppressor says that Egypt was an advanced civilization, far from the steaming jungles of sub-Saharan Africa with its primative tom toms and unwashed cannibals. Egypt must be where I come from, because I know that I am a worthwhile, intelligent human being, not at all like they say I am. Yet the great white father withholds his esteem and affection, and the sable children of Africa are denied their Egypt. For serious Egyptologists, this is becoming quite an embarrassment. Does the ethnic dimension of the French, Japanese, or Brasilian population enhance or diminish the cultural contributions of those societies? Of course not!! Pharoah, please let my Egyptians go!! They're turning over in their sarchophagai!
Now onto a far more interesting question. Were there any connections between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa? Absolutely! Trade routes from Egypt stretched for thousands of miles and ideas and artifacts from inside and outside the culture flowed fairly freely. For one example, the bandy-legged dwarf God Bes, master of music, dance, and fertility, was based on a Pygmy architype. Apparently, Pygmy musicians were highly prized by Egyptian courts.
I could go on, but isn't this a conga site? Now I have played darbuka, riq, bendir, and tar for decades and would be happy to post things pertinent to North African music here. But isn't that on some other site? Shouldn't we go back to the Kongo-derived tumbadoras or the Yoruba bata drums? Or speak of those ancient civilzations and their continued cultural radiance around our globe? That's what I come here for.


Saludos,



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Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:39 am

Berimbau,
Thanks for explaining the Eurocentric v.s. Afrocentric neo-academic debate/battle over Egypt.

As a kid, I remember seeing a painting in a history book of what appeared to be a "Pygmy" slave dancing for the enjoyment of an ancient Egyptian aristocrat. I understand that the African slave trade reached into the Mediterranean. You said that you were "quite annoyed at the assumptions being posted here". Would that include my guess that ancient Egyptian culture had little influence in sub-Saharan Africa? I mean, I’ve seen reference of ancient Egypt absorbing influences from its south, but how much did the influences flow in the opposite direction? I know this is the congaboard, but I can’t pass up this opportunity.

The ancient Kongo and Yoruba civilizations must have received "ambassadors" from North Africa and Arabia, but what about Europe and Asia? Maybe that question reveals more ignorance than can be easily addressed at this time.

On to more congaboard-type questions….

The Congolese people had been in Cuba for quite awhile before the Yoruba began arriving in large numbers (1800’s). The Congolese are the most influential African ethnic group in Afro-Cuban music. Son and rumba, the two most important branches of Afro-Cuban popular music are set in Congo-Cuban "templates". The Congolese influence is seamlessly blended into the Cuban music and dance sensibilities. The other side of the coin is that the transplanted Congolese music and dance are also the most "creolized" of the African traditions in Cuba because they have been on the island for so long.

The Yoruba on the other hand, have been there for less time and their liturgical music is has been kept intact to a greater degree. Because of the wealth and complexity of Lukumi (Cuban-Yoruba) music, many people look to that music as the ultimate source of Cuban popular music. Carlos Santana: "It all came from the bata" (from the documentary "Sworn to the Drum").

We should be looking more to the Congolese influences, although there’s no doubt that Cuba is a cultural melting pot. I’ve heard of both Cuban-Congolese and Lukumi practitioners performing in Africa, where their music and dance was recognized by the original ethnic groups.

So Berimbau, do you agree and did anything like I’m describing happen in Brazil?
-David
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Postby Berimbau » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 pm

David,
It's a bit dangerous to answer any questions before the coffee finishes boiling, so please bare with me if wisdom comes slowly. No,
I don't find your posts annoying, but I just bristle at ANY racially-based arguments about culture. Culture is so fluid that it seeps through all barriers, even between sworn enemies and warring polities. Now race on the other hand is simply a phenotypic illusion, and any conclusions based on exactly how many melaninocites an individual human being carries is completey irrelavent. Racist assumptions are what's really at the heart of the Egyptian debate, for it's a battle where both sides are wrong.
Your assement of Kongo/Angolan and Yoruba influences in Cuban culture are essentially correct. As the Portuguese were the largest and longest running suppliers of slaves, it should be no surprise that they were culled from the area of Africa where they had the greatest control, coastal Zaire, Angola, and Mozambique. From these strongholds slaves were traded from very far inland. It is said that at the height of the trade slave coffles in the middel of Africa which were heading for Luanda often encountered other slave coffles that were heading for Mozambique. In any case, many areas of central Africa were severly depopulated due to the intensity of the slave trade. The overall population of Bantu-speaking Africans in the entire slave trade is close to 45% of the entire figures. The Bantu culture was the engine that drove most Diasporan cultures.
The Yoruba came in their greatest numbers in the wake of the Yoruba wars of the early 19th century. These wars were instigated by Europeans to fill the holds of slave ships. Following this, many Yoruba freemen also came to the Caribbean, creating a flow of ideas and artifacts that invigorated that culture in Cuba and elsewhere. Much the same occred in Brasil, but not in the U.S. where the legal slave trade had long ended. Still it is best to exercise extreme caution when assessing the overall slave population and attempting to tally it through the various African cultural extentions in the Diaspora. Ethnicity and culture are no more mutually exclusive here than they are in ancient Egypt. Two good books to read are Mintz and Price's "The Birth of African-American Culture" or Kubik's Africa and the Blues."
Now other than the liturgical music of the Yoruba and perhaps some other groups in Cuba, I think that what we hear in Afro-Cuban popular music is a unique fusion of West and Central African musical values with an additional layer of European influences. Various African groups recognize Cuban music as "their own" for a variety of reasons, but that will have to ensue in another post.


Saludos,



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Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:35 pm

Berimbau wrote:1.
Now race on the other hand is simply a phenotypic illusion, and any conclusions based on exactly how many melaninocites an individual human being carries is completey irrelavent. Racist assumptions are what's really at the heart of the Egyptian debate, for it's a battle where both sides are wrong.

2.
... many Yoruba freemen also came to the Caribbean, creating a flow of ideas and artifacts that invigorated that culture in Cuba and elsewhere. Much the same occred in Brasil, but not in the U.S. where the legal slave trade had long ended.

3.
Various African groups recognize Cuban music as "their own" for a variety of reasons, but that will have to ensue in another post.

Berimbau,
Some juicy stuff here.
1.
Right on!
2.
I seem to remember several people like Robert Farris Thomson and Ned Sublet making the case that remnents of Yoruba culture can be found in African-American culture. Is that wishfull thinking on their part?
3.
The incidents I was thinking about were when Jesus Perez and other top Cuban bataleros traveled to see the top Nigerian bataleros and when Cuban-Congolee dances were performed in the Congo. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject.
-David
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Postby Berimbau » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:52 pm

David,
History is just chock a block full of juicy surprises, and as one sage once put it, "the truth ain't half been told yet." I do know Bob and Ned and admire them both for their enthusiasm. As to the Yoruba presence in the United States, I have no doubt that some were taken here. Exactly how many I have no idea, but I have seen estimations that they account for up to 11% of the African peoples enslaved here. That figure may be a little bit high, but the numeric strength of a specific ethnic group is not as relavent to the issue of African cultural continuities as many previously thought. In some instances charismatic individuals
from minority ethnic groups have had enormous influence on the cultural mainstream.
As to Yoruba influences in the cultural of the United States, I don't find any really compelling evidence of it. Much has been made of a few Yoruba loan words in the Gullah dialect, and although Lorenzo Dow Turner identified many, I'm not too sure how many were actually spoken on the mainland. Other evidence proffered is the presence of a small kettledrum played by a slave musician in the anonymous 18th century painting, "The Old Plantation." For some this drum is derived from the Nigerian gudu gudu. It seems a bit tentative as the multicultural context of the scene, an African-American slave wedding, features other instruments and cultural expressions clearly not derived from Yoruba sources.
Most other "evidence" I've seen is even far more ambiguous, attributable to MANY different ethnic groups in West or Central Africa. Remember, the legal slave trade to the U.S. ended in 1802 with the African presence in the overall U.S. population at well under 8% of the overall total. Following the Civil War, the African population here more than doubled, but these were all U.S. born slaves with no direct link to any African culture.
Now the kind of Yoruba cultural clusters encountered in Cuba and Brasil, or those resulting from the far more recent migrations of the 19th century Yoruba freemen, or "late 'rrivants" in Jamaica and Trinidad, might leave us with the impression that the Yoruba were far more important numerically or culturally. In the wider world of the African Diaspora, it is certainly much less so.



Saludos,



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Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:05 am

Thank you Berimbau. May I re-ask one remaining question? Have you encountered any evidence that major influences from ancient Egypt penetrated Equatorial West and Central Africa? Did ancient Benin (which came later) have diplomatic contact with the Mediterranean or Arabia? (oops that's two questions) I'm sure the trade routes brought goods from far away, but I'm wondering about that regions geographic isolation.
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Postby ABAKUA » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:25 pm

Great reading. :cool:

Richard (Berimbau) where did you undergo these studies/achieve your acreditation if you dont mind me asking, you display a wealth of historical knowledge in you history posts.
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Postby Berimbau » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:58 am

Dear David,
I doubt if there was too much direct contact between Egypt and West and Central Africa in ancient times. That really begins in the 7th century with the gold and salt trading Malian and Ghanain empires. This does not mean that ideas and artifacts were unable to flow between these groups. In anthropological set theory, group A trades with group B, who in turn trades with group C, who in turn trades with group D. In this manner, material and non-material culture can flow from A to D with NO DIRECT CONTACT between the two groups. For centuries, prized trade items, known as "prestige goods" in the anthropological jargon, could be traded from one region to the next until they arrived FAR from the culture of their origin. Case in point, ancient Chinese ceramics unearthed in New Foundland by archaeologists and radiocarbon dated as pre-Columbian. How did these things get there? Through a circuitous path along the Silk Road where they eventually ended up in Norse hands. Norse explorers bought the items, along with wine bottles and boat nails of their own manufacture to this New World site.
Now the esteemed Egyptologist and ethnomusicologist Lise Maniche rightfully finds ample extentions of ancient Egyptian organology in the tindinit harp of Mauritania and the adufe frame drum of Morocco and Portugal. She makes many other interesting observations on the longevity of the ney flute and the tar and darabuka drums still so omnipresent in Near Eastern cultures. As to any ancient Egyptian influences in Yoruba or Kongolese cultures, the two which concern most on this site, I don't detect any. Finally, here are a few links which you may find of interest:

http:/h/nefertiti.iwebland.com/trade/index.html

http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new....y.shtml

Now Abakua,
If there is the least thing admirable about my erudition all credit must go to my excellent professors, Gerhard Kubik, David Evans, Angus Gillespie, and many others. For the record, I do NOT have a Phd, but do have an intersting academic background. I studied art, theater, music, film, and literature at Brookdale, Classical and Jazz at Rowan College, Anthropolgy and Folklore at Rutgers, and finally, got a degree in ethnomusicology at University of Memphis. That and $2.69 will buy you a gallon of gas in Memphis.


Saludos,


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Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:54 am

Berimbau wrote:As to any ancient Egyptian influences in Yoruba or Kongolese cultures, the two which concern most on this site, I don't detect any.

Berimbau,
OK, but you don't deny that the Yoruba or Kongolese cultures had direct contact with the Illuminati and enlightened aliens do you? :p

:D Just kidding.

Thanks so much for indulging me and for turning me onto those links.
-David




Edited By davidpenalosa on 1151031377
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Postby Berimbau » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:52 am

Actually by 1482 the Portuguese had established forts and missions along the west coast of the Republic of Angola. Subesquently, King Alphonso I of Kongo converted to Christianity and established friendly relations with Portugal. The Christian Portuguese influences in the Kongo/Angolan region really needs to be reassessed visa vis further transculturative phenomenolgies in Cuba, the U.S., and Brasil. It seems that some researchers are finally taking this important historical development into account. If you mean the Portuguese illuminati, as in the classic illuminati, that might not be as far fetched as you think. For several million African slaves, the New World order had allready begun in earnest.


Saludos,



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Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:55 am

Berimbau,
Sorry, I was trying to make a joke by stating a delusional theory connecting the Illuminati and UFO aliens to Ancient African Kingdoms (remember I live in Northern California, where people say this kind of stuff with a straight face). I think you may have misunderstood me, but I ended up learning something new anyway.

So, are there some researchers who hypothesize that Christianized Congolese were brought to the New World as slaves? That would offer an interesting slant on the whole issue of Afro-Euro religious "synchronization". Or, did Christianized Congolese help facilitate the slavery of non-Christians?

It’s interesting, there’s an Oyá (Yoruba) song with the Moslem greeting "sala saleko maleku salam" in it. There’s also a Cuban-Congolese song or two with that phrase. I wonder if these phrases came into African songs via Moslem slave traders?
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Postby Berimbau » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:29 pm

Forget the Illumanati, or Cali UFOs, I live up the street from the Nuwaubian Nation of Moors whose spiritual soundtrack can be no less than Sun Ra's "Space is the Place!" Here's what they're into:
Human origins

* Everyone is originally conceived as twins, but usually only one of the twins survives to be born.[32]
* It is important to bury the afterbirth so that Satan does not use it to make a duplicate of the recently-born child.[33]
* People were once symmetrical and ambidextrous, but then a meteorite struck Earth and tilted its axis causing handedness and shifting the heart off-center in the chest.[34]
* Reincarnation has a physical as well as spiritual aspect:

The physical body, when one dies, recycles from the ground in which it’s planted, it then penetrates into the atmosphere as film or dust particles and are breathed into the nostrils of human beings where they are recycled by triggering nerves in the sinus cavity. This sinus cavity works like a kidney to sift out the unneeded particles and relates the chemical composure of that which is needed into the mother’s blood stream and the human flesh is reanimated and this is the process by which a child is given form or flesh in the Mother’s womb.[35]

* Each of us has seven clones:

Clones are in tune with each other unconsciously and linked etherically, which means anything that happens to you the cloned counterparts of you feels also. For instance you may feel a sharp pain, for no apparent reason like your hand may feel like it has been cut and that is because your clones hand may have been. You can have an emotional break down out of the “clear blue sky” because one of your counterparts did. For instance me, I have had smoke come out of my mouth, it was a strange tobacco, for no apparent reason. It turned out my duplicate in Tibet smokes and the smoke came through me. I do not smoke anything.[36]

* Women existed for many generations before they invented men through genetic manipulation.[37] – yet:

The great pharmacist and chemist Nergal Shar’etsar Ruler of the Underworld, was also involved in the breeding process of the new beings (Homo Sapiens). When Adam was a child of two years of age, three years of real time, the scientist Nergal went into his bone marrow to take blood to mix it in to create Eve, which was then implanted into the womb of Anath, Mother of Eve. This bone marrow is what religious scholars say is the rib (tsala’) in the Bible.[38]

* Homo sapiens is the result of cloning experiments that were done on Mars using Homo erectus.[39]
* Human genetic material was sent to Earth before land could sustain people, so it was inserted into dolphins. Hence the name "dolphin," which comes from the Greek word for womb.[citation needed]
* “When the Earth shifts, babies will stop being born and that day will come soon. Babies are not really being born anymore. They are being cloned.”[23]

Animal origins

* Birds evolved from fish, not from reptiles.[40] And some species of dinosaur, for instance the Tyrannosaurus Rex, evolved from extra-terrestrial greys.[41]
* The pig was created by Imhotep and Zoser during the time of Abraham, by grafting cells from the dog, cat and rat together, and was designed to help dispose of leprous corpses.[42]
* Shrimp, lobsters, and humans all have scales.[citation needed]

Anti-Nubian conspiracies

* “Haven’t you ever wondered why for the simplest blood tests your doctor needs 4 tubes of blood? Where is all this blood going? The albino man’s ‘blood bank’ is just a sophisticated way of getting all the blood he needs! It is still a form of vampirism.”[43]
* Beverage alcohol is made cheaply available to Nubians by the powers that be in order to preserve their blood and organs better “ (just like they preserve organs in jars in laboratories) ” for later extraction.[44]
* Disco was created by the devil to win the souls of the Nubians: “The evil one knows that he can control the music world as long as his agents are within the A & R (Artists and Repertoire, who are responsible for choosing who makes it in the music world) of the well known companies. He cannot evaluate Latin or Black music because he (the evil one) has no soul. He only duplicates it… He had to come up with something to win our souls through his means, and he did it with disco.”[45]
* There is an underground road connecting New York and London. Furthermore, Alternative 3 is a fact, and Mars is being prepared for the evacuation of Earth’s intellectual and political elite.[46]
* “[P]eople like the Pope, and Queen of England and various political leaders of various countries and some members of the clergy gather at the major Sabbats to invoke the malevolent one. On each of these occasions a Nubian man is sacrificed.”[47]
* The Illuminati have nurtured a child, Satan's son, who was born on 6 June 1966 at the Dakota House on 72nd Street in New York to the Rothschild/Kennedy families. The Pope was present at the birth and performed necromantic ceremonies. The child was raised by former U.S. president Richard Nixon and now lives in Belgium, where it is hooked up bodily to a computer called “The Beast 3M” or “3666.”[23]

Oh, and it DOES go on from there!!!


Gimmie Me Dat Ol' Time Religion,


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