Conga Drum History - One Viewpoint - Conga Drum History (Warden)

Let's discuss about the origin and history of this beautiful instrument...

Postby zaragenca » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:14 pm

Ok David,better scholar in what?,and you don't need to defend him becouse I already said that some misconceptions are not his fault,but a recycling of wrong information,in relation to the cuban music and providing the data,and it was all over the differents media of the differents countries at that time,(which again was before 1900).Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby zaragenca » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:40 pm

He said,(Nolan),after slavery was completely abolished in 1886, a large number of blacks began to move from plantations and the country to urban areas…....Dr. Zaragemca say..’The movement of slaves from the country side to other places started since 1835,when slaves were allowed to buy their freedom,but the biggest movement happened during the ’10 years war,(1868-1878), when Cuban/Colonos gave the freedom to their slaves in order to recruit them to fight against the Spanish/government,(that was the biggest movement of population in Cuba not only throughout of Cuba,but also out of Cuba),by 1886 the slavery was not longer effective so they just took it out of the officials/paper,(it is just recycling of wrong information in Cuba....Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby zaragenca » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:05 pm

Anyway people didn’t totally move away from the rural areas, (after the wars), the Sugar-Mills were rebuilded,or new ones builded,and there were the Coffee/business,the Tabacco/busness,Cattle/business,the agriculture/business,the mines/business,etc.,so it was never the case that the country side was empty a lot of people went back to the rural/areas after the conflict and wars were settle out.. to be continued...Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:52 pm

zaragenca wrote:He said,(Nolan),after slavery was completely abolished in 1886, a large number of blacks began to move from plantations and the country to urban areas…....Dr. Zaragemca say..’The movement of slaves from the country side to other places started since 1835,when slaves were allowed to buy their freedom,but the biggest movement happened during the ’10 years war,(1868-1878), when Cuban/Colonos gave the freedom to their slaves in order to recruit them to fight against the Spanish/government,(that was the biggest movement of population in Cuba not only throughout of Cuba,but also out of Cuba),by 1886 the slavery was not longer effective so they just took it out of the officials/paper,(it is just recycling of wrong information in Cuba....Dr. Zaragemca

Nolan states in 1886 it was a "LARGE" movement of blacks to urban areas.
Is it not possible that prior to this the numbers of blacks migrating acroos Cuba was comparativley smaller?
Freedom to fight during a war is adiiferent matter, soldiers are not free, they are conscripted.
This recruitment may have been the biggest movement of population in Cuba at the time, Nolan specifically points out a movement to URBAN areas, not a general movement of population.
Soldiers within an army are just as often employed in rural and remote areas as they are to urban ones.
As such I can discern no misinformation in Nolan's paper as indicated by your comments.




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Postby zaragenca » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:52 pm

Bongosnot,I think that you have problems understanding messages,(NOTHING HAPPENED IN 1886,EVERYTHING TOOK PLACE BEFORE THAT DATE).Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:53 pm

zaragenca wrote:He said, ’In the early to mid- 1900,Cuban rhythms were picked up and popularized by the U.S. media’…Dr.Zaragemca said,..The Orquestras Tipicas and military bands from Cuba have been performing in Key West,New Orleans,New Jersey,New York,Veracruz,Brasil,Colombia,etc.,Since 1824,again,..SINCE 1824…During the, 10 years of wars of Cuba against Spain,(1868-1878),a lot of Cuban musicians and band directors went to exile taking the Cuban rhythma and music to ,Mexico,U.S.,Europe,and South Ammerica…And there have always been an immigration to Cuba of artist from Europe,so the Cuban music and rhythms were known around the world long, long time before 1900.Dr. Zaragemca

Yes, some Cuban rhythms were known around the world a long time before 1900, primarily through the sales of sheet music. Since the 20's, the son spread via the phonograph and radio. Motion pictures spread it further in the 30's. Television brought the mambo and cha-cha-cha into North American homes in the 50's. All of these historical events have varying degrees of relevance upon the subject of the article in question: the Cuban conga drum. Warden is not stating that there were no musical Cuban/American exchanges prior to 1900. Therefore, I can’t see how his focus on 20th Century events could be considered “misinformation”.
-David
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:57 pm

Z....Please read , my post again, it clearly states slavery was abolished in 1886.
This would include slaves that could not buy their freedom and also would include more freedom than being conscripted in an army fighting a war.
The date Nolan quotes, remains a significant point in time even in light of your responses.




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Postby zaragenca » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:25 pm

Bongosnot,which were the slaves which in 1886 couldn't buy their freedom and were not already free and which was the more conscripted freedom which they got in 1886....To David..it is not a misinformation per se,but it is a misconception becouse the facts that many people don't the cuban music was all over the world long before 1900,(every article which I found is talking about 1898,etc),when the music have been around since 1824,not 1898.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby zaragenca » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:27 pm

Bongosnot,which were the slaves which in 1886 couldn't buy their freedom and were not already free and which was the more conscripted freedom which they got in 1886....To David..it is not a misinformation per se,but it is a misconception becouse the facts that many people don't know that the cuban music was all over the world long before 1900,(every article which I found is talking about 1898,etc),when the music have been around since 1824,not 1898.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:16 am

Dr. Z,
I am only comparing what you say with what Nolan Warden says, he is describing a large movement to urban areas due to abolishment of slavery.
You are saying that movement began before the abolishment of slavery due to the buying of freedom and serving in the army to fight Spain.
It would seem comparatively, that the movement due to the abolishemnt of slavery would be larger as ALL slaves were now free.
Larger compared to your description of bought freedom slaves, and slaves freed in order to serve in the military.
There is surely a smaller amount of slaves freed due to purchase of freedom, than those freed during complete abolishment?
Surely slaves freed during abolishment were more free than those serving the military in a war?
Thus the conclusion is the larger impact musically occured when there were larger numbers of people to influence the music?
Certainly migration and influence may have occured prior to the abolishment, most probably it was a much less significant influence than the larger migration that would occur due to the abolishment of slavery.
Nolan Warden's statement still seems valid.
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Postby zaragenca » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:20 pm

You should have been riding this posting instead of trying to debate something for which you didn't have your own research to argument,...He or you could not discribe something which you didn't observe if it is not suported by facts,I did all this research long time when I was studing the history of my ancestors long time ago and that's why I found out that ',REAL HISTORY',...First of all the treaty to stop slavery was siigned long before that,(in 1817), there is nothing to supporte a large movement of people in 1886,and there is documentation to support movement of people since 1835 and to support the biggest movement of population during the (10 years war,1868-1878),, the development of the cuban music didn't started in 1886,neither 1886 was afaster development of the structure in the cuban music, why the people which were liberated during the war couldn't enjoy their freedom ,even if they were used in the military?....The migration around Cuba and to Cuba from outside was interrupted becouse the war,,,not per se becouse slavery..Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:13 pm

End of Slavery in Cuba

Under the terms of the Pact of Zanjón, which ended the The Ten Year War in 1878, slaves who fought on either side of the war were set free, but those who did not fight had to endure almost another decade of slavery.

Two years later the Spanish Cortes approved an abolition law (1880) that provided for an eight-year period of patronato (tutelage) for all slaves liberated according to the law. This only amounted to indentured servitude, as slaves were required to spend those 8 years working for their masters at no charge. On October 7 1886, slavery was finally abolished in Cuba by a royal decree that also made the patronato illegal.
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Postby zaragenca » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:43 pm

First of all the clause of 'Working 8 YEARS WITHOUT CHARGE', was a nonsense, becouse they were already before that allowed to buy they freedom,and many of them just took off without paying anything...During the (10 years war),many of them liberalized themselves, the tutalage/law was a trick to bring some slaves back,or to keep some of them,(the mayority of them womens),holding up, IT DIDN"T WORK , and that's why in 1886 they have to declare the slavery abolished,in order to make them to work with payment.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:58 pm

Zaragenca and bongosnotbombs,
Can you please cite the sources for your conflicting viewpoints? Thanks.
-David
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:34 pm

My previous post was a lazy copy and paste from this website.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/race/EndSlave.htm

However the date of the end of slavery remains.

My other remarks are defending Nolan Wardens statement against Dr. Z's criticisms, which mostly revolve around the immigration of former slaves to urban areas as a contibution to the development of cuban music.

Dr.Z presents his argument that the influence really occurs before this, as slaves were able to buy freedom and others were freed to do military service.

I counter by saying the influence would surely be greater after emancipation as all former slaves were freed, not just the ones that could purchase freedom. I also conjecture that former slaves in the military could not have as much influence as emancipated slaves, as they were in the military preoccupied with fighting a war.

Granted slaves freed from military service would have 10 years of freedom. This number would still be smaller and would include only slaves capable of doing military service. It would exclude women and the elderly.




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