Conga Drum History - One Viewpoint - Conga Drum History (Warden)

Let's discuss about the origin and history of this beautiful instrument...

Postby zaragenca » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:31 pm

Well the authority in the articulation of the Bata in Nigeria would be ddiferent according with the time,but in Cuba I could say to all the olubatas which you mentioned that the first authority was ,'Adessina', and all of them knows that the maxima authority in the all corresponding to initiations rest with the Oriate,(the bataleros have never being more authority than the Oriates in Cuba..You are saying yourself about the cosistency of the bataleros in they playing,( I already mentioned the personal touch in playing Bata),the argument is in relation of what you said about from where the Bata articulation is coming from..Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby zaragenca » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:41 pm

Also David,I forgot to mentioned that in one of your articles about Bata you mentioned than Pablo Roche was the beneficiary of the first ' Set/Bata' which were made in Cuba and that is not correct,neither he got the first Set/Bata which were made in the Habana..DR. Zaragemca
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Postby Facundo » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:41 pm

zaragenca wrote:Also David,I forgot to mentioned that in one of your articles about Bata you mentioned than Pablo Roche was the beneficiary of the first ' Set/Bata' which were made in Cuba and that is not correct,neither he got the first Set/Bata which were made in the Habana..DR. Zaragemca

Hey Z,

I have been lurking while following this discussion. Let me first say that Pablo was the beneficiary of "one" of the oldest sets of bata to be carved in Cuba by Atanda and Salako. The set came to him via his father Andres Roche (Andres Sublime).

David is absolutely correct with regard to Oriate's not having authority over the articulation of the bata. The rhytms played and the conversations within the oro have nothing to do with an Oriate's work.

What has been missing in this conversation is the fact that bata talk in what Ortiz reference to in an onomotopea SP ( the drums mimic the speach patterns in Yoruba language which also uses tonal inflextions). That being the case "all of the eleders" in Cuba that could speak Yoruba could also understand what the drums were saying. This holds true for Nigeria today and has nothing to do with Ife or Benin as you stated. Again the bata talk and what they say is within any rhythmic framework has to do with the particular abilities of the Olubata.

What is important is that as the Yoruba language became less used for communication in Cuba, musical inventiveness became more acceptable. This is not to say the the language has been completely lost in Cuba because it has not. I have heard the late Julito Collazo speak Yoruba to Nigerians. Papo Angarica still speaks Yoruba as well, just name a few.

Again, the key issue is the language. There are some Olubata that know what the drums are saying but also many who do not in Cuba but are still excellent bata players. What has now been set as oro secco and oro cantado is what has been copied over and over again. Was they played the same way in Africa? That is anyone's guess. However, it is certain that they also verbal statements that can be understood by those who speak the language. We need to also understand that there is a difference between two bata players actually talking to each other and two players making changes because they are adept muscians.

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Postby zaragenca » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:07 pm

Welcome brother Facundo..making an statement of having one of the ‘oldest set of Bata’, is different that saying the first set of Bata made in Cuba...I know that the 'set' used by Pablo Roche came to him through his father Andres Roche..but it was not the first set of Bata made in Cuba ,neither in the Habana…..In relation to the Oriate,I don’t know what is the new invention out of Cuba,but since I was born there and until the time I left Cuba,.Oriate have been the maximum authority in everything related to the ceremonies,(they have completely dominate all the articulations of the songs to be an Oriate),and I have observed many times Oriates in Cuba correcting anybody,(including bataleros when the articulation would not correspond to the interpretation of what the (Oriates), think that it should be played),…In relation to Africa,(Nigeria),I made the statement and continue to affirm than the only people which would have absolutely knowledge in Ife,and later in Benin/City are the drummers which were member of the societies which were in charge of playing in the ceremonies..and Benin was absolutely more restrictive in that regard,(the society was hereditary and their could not use the drums for anything else than for ritual ceremonies)..so not one out of those drumming societies,or the people officiating in the ceremonies, knew about those drums. ..And I don’t think that anybody in Cuba knew more than Adessina,(Regino Herrera), in what I’m saying…or one of my Godfather ‘Cheche’ which was the leading Oriate in Habana from 1950’s until his death.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby Facundo » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:45 pm

zaragenca wrote:Welcome brother Facundo..making an statement of having one of the ‘oldest set of Bata’, is different that saying the first set of Bata made in Cuba...I know that the 'set' used by Pablo Roche came to him through his father Andres Roche..but it was not the first set of Bata made in Cuba ,neither in the Habana…..In relation to the Oriate,I don’t know what is the new invention out of Cuba,but since I was born there and until the time I left Cuba,.Oriate have been the maximum authority in everything related to the ceremonies,(they have completely dominate all the articulations of the songs to be an Oriate),and I have observed many times Oriates in Cuba correcting anybody,(including bataleros when the articulation would not correspond to the interpretation of what the (Oriates), think that it should be played),…In relation to Africa,(Nigeria),I made the statement and continue to affirm than the only people which would have absolutely knowledge in Ife,and later in Benin/City are the drummers which were member of the societies which were in charge of playing in the ceremonies..and Benin was absolutely more restrictive in that regard,(the society was hereditary and their could not use the drums for anything else than for ritual ceremonies)..so not one out of those drumming societies,or the people officiating in the ceremonies, knew about those drums. ..And I don’t think that anybody in Cuba knew more than Adessina,(Regino Herrera), in what I’m saying…or one of my Godfather ‘Cheche’ which was the leading Oriate in Habana from 1950’s until his death.Dr. Zaragemca

Z,

I am well aware of the duties and responsibilities of Oriates and they have "nothing" to do with the articulation and songs that are sung in ceremonies that involve bata. Granted by verture of their position they might call for a change in the rhythm or song being sung by the akpon due to a particular circumstance in the bembe. They might even criticise what is being played as would any elder but to say they dominnate the articulation is incorrect. Very few Oriates are trained as Olubata and therefore would not be in a position to
"domminate the articulation" as you put it. Oriates are the "masters of ceremonies" in initiations, itutus and direct ceremonies when Orishas are being received. The king of the music is the Olubata that is his training and his responsibility period. This is nothing new here or in Cuba. What is your point in using Adessina's name? He brought Ifa to Cuba well after the religion had begun to function in Cuba.

Your information on Africa is is also incorrect with regard to the bata. What is your source of information?

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Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:14 pm

Right on Facundo!
Typically the drums come into the song, rather than the other way around. The most famous akpwon Lazaro Ros, was known to err when required to come into the drums in performances.
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Postby zaragenca » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:34 pm

I’m sorry brother Facundo,but you aren’t correct in relation of the knowledge of the Oriates to the Bata subject,…I would like for you to mention me which was the male Oriate in Cuba which didn’t know the articulation of the Batas..I mentioned Adessina because there were a lot of thing which were done incorrectly in Cuba before he point it out the correct way to do it,…and as matter of fact I’m already telling you that I have witnessd myself what I said in relation of the Oriates.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby zaragenca » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:52 pm

Also Facundo, you are telling me that my information of the Batas in Africa is incorrect…you point out the reasons why it is incorrect,and I could point out how much you know about this subject,and also the information in relation of the first Set of Bata made in Cuba and the first Set of Bata made in Habana..which is where my correction started in this post.Dr. Zargemca
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Postby JohnnyConga » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:54 pm

Zaragenca.. On the new DVD "El Lenguaje del Tambor"....it is stated that NOBODY knows who made the first set of Bata in Cuba, and that there were originally only 3 'consecrated" sets in Cuba,and now there are 7......chekout the DVD....."JC" Johnny Conga... :D
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Postby zaragenca » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:04 pm

welcome bother JC, as I said before many times,there were things which were only spoken within the Yorubas circle,and there was a reason for it at that time,but the whole linage of the Yorubas activity in Cuba is known,(even if only to few people),but you need to have the trust of the elderly and your Godfather to share things.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby JohnnyConga » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:23 pm

Imagine the Geico cave man.....


ahhhhhhhhh what?............. ??? "JC" Johnny Conga...
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Postby Facundo » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:49 pm

zaragenca wrote:welcome bother JC, as I said before many times,there were things which were only spoken within the Yorubas circle,and there was a reason for it at that time,but the whole linage of the Yorubas activity in Cuba is known,(even if only to few people),but you need to have the trust of the elderly and your Godfather to share things.Dr. Zaragemca

Z,

Well, so now are you saying you are part of the in-crowd that has access to info that others do not. I don't think that is the case at all. It is more than obvious that very basic things that anyone "actively involved" in the Lucumi religious tradition would know that you have more than demonstrated that you are not. I stand fast in saying that Oriates have "no" say in how bata are articulated unless he himself is Olubata and knows the oru. Bata being played properly takes years of in depth study with a competent Olubata. Oriates on the other hand are seated by whoever they apprentice with. Their study is consecrated on the many details associated with consecrations of Orisha and reading dilogun. This is the realm of Oriates. Because they must be competent in calling the Orisha in song, many Oriates also serve as Akpons. However, the ultimate say as to what is played when and how it is properly played reside with the Olubata.

On the issue of bata in Africa being governed by dictates from Ile Ife or Benin is wrong. Bata guilds are not set up to be dominated by any of these religious centers. Bata guilds are independent to the region in which they are found. They function within the rituals associated with the Orisha found in that region. That is to say that many Orisha are only known in certain areas. The songs, orikis and particular praises that might be called for in the conversations in the bata oru are often only known by regional bata groups. Here again, the elder Olubata is the expert in this. I will ask once again "what" is your source of information? I passed to Ifa in Nigeria and spent time with the bata guild in Ife.
I made Ocha with the now difunto Polo "Oshaweye" Gonzales who was a well known Oriate in Cuba before he came to the US. The late Lazaro Ros was my god-brother. Before passing to Ifa I worked with many of the oldest Oriates here in the US. Now as a Babalawo I work other Babalawos made in Africa and the Lucumi lines of Ifa. I stand firm saying you are wrong on both these issues.

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Postby zaragenca » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:04 pm

Well you said that you know about the subject and I did make a question..to tell me an Oriate in Cuba which didn’t know the articulation of the Batas,… The ‘Real’ Oriates in Cuba have done everything for long time before been considered an Oriate..again SAID THE NAMES OF ONE IN CUBA WHICH DIDN”T KNOW THE ARTICULATION OF THE BATAS….It is true that in Africa several region were worshiping differents Orichas,(that is one of the reasons that not all the regions know how to make and play a Bata), and there were people in Nigeria traveling to perform ceremonial iniciations first from Ile Ife and later from Benin/City which took the control of Yorubaland in agreement with Ife,(and continued the development of everything in relation with the Arts,culture,military, ceremonies)… Back to Cuba,… none of those persons which you mentioned have told you which was the first set of Bata made in Cuba and the first one made in Habana come on,…. if you have been around important people answer my questions..You said that you worked with the oldest Oriates in the U.S.A., which is not true,..the Oldest Oriates died in Cuba, (including my Godfather ‘Che Che’)…If you have been around important people in the Yorubas affairs, answer my questions.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby Facundo » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:55 pm

zaragenca wrote:Well you said that you know about the subject and I did make a question..to tell me an Oriate in Cuba which didn’t know the articulation of the Batas,… The ‘Real’ Oriates in Cuba have done everything for long time before been considered an Oriate..again SAID THE NAMES OF ONE IN CUBA WHICH DIDN”T KNOW THE ARTICULATION OF THE BATAS….It is true that in Africa several region were worshiping differents Orichas,(that is one of the reasons that not all the regions know how to make and play a Bata), and there were people in Nigeria traveling to perform ceremonial iniciations first from Ile Ife and later from Benin/City which took the control of Yorubaland in agreement with Ife,(and continued the development of everything in relation with the Arts,culture,military, ceremonies)… Back to Cuba,… none of those persons which you mentioned have told you which was the first set of Bata made in Cuba and the first one made in Habana come on,…. if you have been around important people answer my questions..You said that you worked with the oldest Oriates in the U.S.A., which is not true,..the Oldest Oriates died in Cuba, (including my Godfather ‘Che Che’)…If you have been around important people in the Yorubas affairs, answer my questions.Dr. Zaragemca

Z,

This is a waste of time. You are not an Olorisha, Babalawo nor Oluo yet you post on things involving La Regla de Ocha as an expert which you are not. Not to say that I am either even with my direct involvement. Just to be clear, by the term articulation, I understand that to mean knowing the rhythms inside and out and being able to recognize what is being played wrong. One has to study that intently to be able to do that. Oriates that are not drummers who have devoted a lot of time to learn that would not be able to speak directly to "what" is being played incorrectly. However, as I said before any Olorisha who has been around bata should be able to recognize the primary rhythms for their Orisha and maybe others as well. However, that does not mean that they can correct the alanya. Neither my god-father Polo, Antonio Carmona nor Alberto, el leon, just to name a few of the Oriates that I have worked with, were in a position to correct the alanya. They were all recognized as seated Oriates in Cuba before coming to the US.

Again, I have been to Nigeria and not speaking on bata from what I have read in books. However, I still ask you to state your source on African bata practices? Please substantiate your position on this issue by giving us your source of info.

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Postby zaragenca » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:35 pm

First of all you have not jurisdiction to say who I'm in the Yorubas field becouse you don't know me personally neither I know you personally,ok...I could tell you who was 'Polo' Godmother in Ocha since you mentioned him,(and I know how it was called the people which were comming from his Ocha/House line..do you know that name?....since you have been around him.. And there are a lot of people which became Oriates in the U.S.A.,..becouse there were notbody else older, the olders Oriates were in Cuba and died in Cuba,and as I said before many times I HAVE WITNESSED THEM CORRECTING EVERY ONE INCLUDING BATALEROS....let me finished with you in relation to the Cuban side and I would get in to the African later...but I want you to answer my pending questions.Dr. Zaragemca
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