Conga Drum History - One Viewpoint - Conga Drum History (Warden)

Let's discuss about the origin and history of this beautiful instrument...

Postby zaragenca » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:34 pm

You are welcome,my sources are the elderly,my ancestors and the history itself,(e.g. if they were since 1935 already buying their freedom,how could you make them in 1880,to work for free for 8 years),THEY WERE SLAVE FOR CIRCUNSTANCIES,BUT NOT STUPID.Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:41 pm

bongosnotbombs,
Thanks for posting your source.

zaragenca,
"because somebody told you", is not a source that stands up to scrutiny. It doesn't cut it.
-David
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Postby zaragenca » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:12 pm

Then in that case not history is going to cut it,becouse history is all about oral communication,(even the people which could alive at that time still have to communicate with witness, becouse nobody was everywhere to see everything..All those scholars in Universities writing books, are building the histories with communication in first place,(sometime they would not get the real deal because our ancestors didn’t trusts them,(it was their prerogative because in their condition they didn’t have to trust people which were not of their background).Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby zaragenca » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:58 pm

Continuing with the review of Mr. Nolan, in reference to the ‘Solares’,.....I could say that the mayority of the ‘Solares’ were in the middle if the City,(I was born in one of them), the people living in the Solares were of Bantu,Carabaly,Arara,Mandinga,Yoruba,Spanish,Chinese,European,etc..etc.ancestries…to be continued…Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:56 pm

zaragenca wrote:Then in that case not history is going to cut it,becouse history is all about oral communication,(even the people which could alive at that time still have to communicate with witness, becouse nobody was everywhere to see everything..All those scholars in Universities writing books, are building the histories with communication in first place,(sometime they would not get the real deal because our ancestors didn’t trusts them,(it was their prerogative because in their condition they didn’t have to trust people which were not of their background).Dr. Zaragemca

All history is not oral, there is written and photgraphic, as well as oral history.

Oral history needs to be corroborated by additional oral accounts, or by documentation of whe the original oral sources were, before it can become a credible resource, to the best of my knowledge.
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Postby zaragenca » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:28 pm

Bongosnot, I didn't started in this last week,(everybody which know my for several years in the forum and consulting business know that I always provide detail information,(in the case of disagreement) with a subject,that's why I was spending a lot of time,( at that time even many cubans took for granted the heritage and legacy that my ancestors where bringing from Africa to Cuba)..Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby ABAKUA » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:03 am

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Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:53 am

Not sure I need the Anti-Stress Kit just yet.
:)

Aural histories certainly have great value and they are sometimes the only sources we have. Solid scholarship requires a skeptical approach though. Corroboration of evidence is essential in establishing historical facts. Eyewitness accounts are the closest we have to actually being there ourselves, but different eyewitness accounts can be contradictory. I think everybody must have experienced this in their lives; you shared an experience with someone and later discovered that their recollection of that experience was at odds with yours.

Here’s an example of contradictory aural histories. In Dr. Amanda Vincent’s ground-breaking thesis “Bata conversations: guardianship and entitlement narratives about the bata in Nigeria and Cuba” (School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London), she compares several differing opinions on “how much of the current bata repertoire came from Africa and what portion was developed in Cuba” (pg. 218-219). Babalawo, alana and former musical Director of the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional, Mario Jauregui stated that Cuban bata rhythms (except “Yankota”) were developed in Cuba. However, Los Munequitos founding member and Matanzas bata patriarch Estaban “Cha Cha” Vega contradicts this, claiming that the Cuban bata rhythms “all came from Africa”. Furthermore, African bata authorities don’t necessarily agree on this issue either.

Very often aural narratives reinforce the authority and entitlement of the teller. For instance, there’s an amusing competitive dynamic between Havana and Matanzas, where each community claims to be the birthplace of the Cuban bata and rumba. This is human nature.

So, as far as Nolan Warden’s paper on the history of the conga drum, I’m confident that if presented with some strong contrary evidence, he would modify or change his views and conclusions where necessary. I found him to be very sharp when I critiqued his thesis on "Cajon pa los muertos". I ended up learning some interesting things in the process. The key is to be more attached to the search for truth, than to projecting the idea that one holds the truth.

In regards to this forum, I always appreciate it when someone cites the source of their information. It becomes knowledge I can use and incorporate into what I already know. I myself have no problem saying that “according to so-and-so, blah-blah happened”. In citing the source, I have given a context to the info, filling out the picture, and I myself have not made any claim as to what is ultimately true. On the other hand, with enough corroborating evidence, I'm comfortable in stating that certain facts are true, such as “rumba is an Afro-Cuban music genre” (I know, I’m really going out on a limb here!! :) )
-David




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Postby zaragenca » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:05 pm

Well brother David,I don't know from where Mario Jauregui got his opinion,(Jesus Perez his tutor should be having an unrest in the cementery),... regardless of some little personal touch of the Olubatas in Cuba the root of the artculation for development of the vocabulary in the Bata ensemble was brought from Africa,(and all the elderly which I have the opportunity to talk about it),had the same opinion,( if somebody wait for everybody to die to change that opinion),it is his problem..Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:28 pm

Zaragenca,
Am I to understand that you personally spoke with Jesus Perez on the subject of Cuban bata retention and invention?

No one doubts that the Cuban bata have their roots in their African counterparts. That’s obvious. The issue I was addressing was the specific rhythms used in Cuba today. There are only a few bata rhythms in Africa that resemble contemporary Cuban toques (latopa, Ibedji, Ogun and Ochossi). However, it’s the general drum melodies that correlate, not the specific drum parts. Also, in Nigeria and Benin, other types of bata drums are used besides the okonkolo, itotele and iya. There are many more similarities and differences between the two systems, but you get the idea.

Dr. Vincent wrote of an orisha celebration in London in which both Nigerian and Cuban bata drummers performed. As the Cuban ensemble played, a Nigerian bata drummer told her “They don’t have any rhythms. They are just improvising” (pg. 218). This is obviously too sweeping a statement since there are plenty of examples of speech surrogacy in Cuban bata (“abukenke” for example), but the African’s comment reveals just how far the two bata systems have grown apart since the early 1800’s.

It’s too sweeping a statement to either say that all the Cuban toques were developed in Cuba (Mario), or that they all came from Africa (Cha Cha), because Cuban bata show evidence of both African retention and Cuban invention. Otiz’s informants were decrying the creeping influence of rumba into the bata liturgy back in the mid-20th Century:

“The drummers are alarmed at the disorder that is spreading in the temples regarding the liturgical toques (rhythms). The people wish to have fun and ask for arrumbados, which are toques similar to rumbas and are not orthodox according to rites…The drummers who do not satisfy the faithful, who are the one’s that pay, are not called to play and if they do not play, they do not collect” (“Los instrumentos de la musica folklorica de Cuba” – Fernando Ortiz).

That trend has continued to the present. There is considerable evidence of changes within both the African and Cuban bata systems over the past half century. There is no solid data before then, but I think that other accounts make it safe to assume that African-based rhythms, to varying degrees, change over time.
-David
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:52 pm

David,
Is that one of Ortiz's early or later writings? As Dr.Z has pointed out, Ortiz's earlier works had some error's as Ortiz himself has admitted.

"African retention Cuban invention" - very well written David. I am sad I won't be able to come to Humboldt and meet you personally. Hopefully you will be in attendance next year.
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Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:11 pm

Bongosnotbombs,
I don't presently have the book in my library, but I recall that it was published in 1950 (later rather than early). The phenomena of the rumba influence in both Cuban folkloric and popular music is quite evident today. So, I doubt that Ortiz would later "correct" that particular quote. As to the general reliability of Fernando Ortiz, since he was the first one to write in-depth on these subjects, there are practically no other written accounts to corraborate his data.

Thank you for your compliment. Sorry you won't be making it to the Humboldt State workshop this year. On the first day of the course I will be giving a lecture/demonstration on discerning bata melodies and hearing clave in the bata.
-David
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Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:36 pm

bongosnotbombs wrote:
zaragenca wrote:He made some reference to Dr. Fernando Ortiz…..Dr Zaragemca say…’With absolutely recognition for Ortiz’s afforts in conducting these studies,… a lot of scholars which followed the research find out and, he, himself,(Ortiz), recognized that he was wrong in many of his early writing because the lack of clear understanding of the subject..

It is quite possible that Ortiz may have been wrong in some of his early writings. The source in Warden's end notes was written in 1952 was 17 years beofre Ortiz's death, indicating it to be one of his later writings, as he was 71 when he wrote it.
Ortiz's writings are only quoted in regards to possible origins of the word conga and tumbadora. Neither author (Warden or Ortiz) comes to any precise conlcusion or determination , which is quite clearly stated by Nolan warden.
As the source quoted is not from an early writing and is merely speculation, and stated as such, I can see no reason to be prejudiced against Nolan's paper from their inclusion.

David,
One of his later writings for certain.




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Postby zaragenca » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:54 pm

David,in relation to the people in Nigeria, I could tell you that not even in Africa all the Yorubas villages knew the proper articulation of the bata,becouse after all the important artistical and responsibility were transferred to Benin/City,(in agreement with Ile Ife), there was the specific society of drummers in Benin which were in charge of performing all the articulation for the ceremonies,and initiations were done by this 'societies' of personnel which would travel to other villages performing this function,..,(as I made reference in the my article Oyo),…so in other to really know the articulation of these drums in Nigeria, you would need to make sure you are speaking which somebody which were member of this ‘society’, or, the people officiating in the ceremonies,(like Adessina which was an Babalawo in charge of those affairs),and was traveling around Yorubaland officiating this ceremonies…In Cuba the structure which was used was uniformed because,’Adessina’ was the one teaching all the initials Olubatas in Cuba ,(both in Matanzas and La Habana), there was incorporation of some Araras articulation because some Araras Deities were incorporated in Cuba also…but my conversation was not only to bataleros,but to ‘Oriates’,(which have more responsibility and authority in relation to the articulation of the drums and how the songs are going to be perform, than the bataleros)…Some of the personal touch were more easy to be incorporated when performing with not consacreted drums,(in the anniversaries of some Iyalochas,),but in initiations conducted with Oriates there could not be any invention. Because the Oriate would call it for rectification…Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:00 pm

Zaragenca,
Who told you this, or where did you read this? Exactly who is the African authority who commented on the “proper articulation of the bata” in Nigeria? Not to discount your source out-of-hand, but such claims of authority and entitlement are always suspect. The informants in the thesis I cited were respected Ayan (Nigerian correlative of Cuban Aña) drummers. As I said in an earlier post, aural narratives tend to reinforce the authority and entitlement of the informant. The more authorities you ask and the more regions you study, the more contradictory information you will gather.

Cuban bata invention is a fact of life. If you examine the repertoire of Havana’s top bataleros (Regino, Mario, Bolaños, Aldama, etc), you will hear an overall consistency, but you will also hear various differences in the details (such as itotele responses and transitions). These details are not the concern of oriates.

Jesus Perez was known for maintaining a degree of orthodoxy within the liturgical rhythms, while the Angarica branch took many more inventive liberties. In the bigger picture though, today’s invention is tomorrow’s tradition. The oru igbodu and oru cantado are most likely Cuban inventions that became solid traditions. Anyone who has studied Cuban or Nigerian bata (or most any other Afro-drum system) over the past half century will observe change over time.
-David




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