Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

[Thomas Altmann]

Facundo & David:

I've been listening behind the curtain all the time. Are you guys talking about Benin City in Nigeria (Bini people) or the state of Benin, formerly Dahomey (Fon)?

Olokun originated in Benin City, as far as I understood. Shakpana (Babalú Ayé) / Dasoji is from former Dahomey, although I am insecured about the direction this deity actually went; it could have migrated the other way around, or we could even have some sort of syncretism here.

(By the way, referring to an earlier state of the discussion: People can be of Yoruba, i.e. of Yoruban ethnic descent, and still be Muslims by confession; like, being German, I still could be a Buddhist.)

TA

[davidpenalosa]

1.
Are you guys talking about Benin City in Nigeria (Bini people) or the state of Benin, formerly Dahomey (Fon)?
2.
Shakpana (Babalú Ayé) / Dasoji is from former Dahomey,
3.
People can be of Yoruba, i.e. of Yoruban ethnic descent, and still be Muslims by confession; like, being German, I still could be a Buddhist.)

Hey Thomas,

1.
All my references to "Benin" have been The Republic of Benin (formally Dahomey) and NOT Benin City. Always good to clarify.
2.
Exactly the point I was making.
3.
Exactly

-David

[Facundo]

I. I understand that Babalú Ayé is originally from the Fon of Benin (Dahomey).

That is the general consensus. However, an old Oriate related to me that Babalu was really a Yoruba deity that was taken to Dahomey by Shango. The story about this is too long for this post. In any event, Babalu ceremonies are different than his ceremonies in Arara (Dahomean Cuban practices). Never the less, there are Orisha that have been exchanged between the Lucumi and Arara such as Nana Buruku, Nanu, and Afra that now propitiated in both traditions. According to my informants the Babalu exchange happened in Africa. Is this history or mythology? Again, I am not sure.

II. I imagine that could be controversial with science at odds with faith.

I agree. One of the problems is that "science" is often not as objective as it purports its' self to be. The results are often the product of hidden biases to justify predetermined agendas. The other issue is that field research with indigenous informants does not always reveal truth. There are times when informants tell the interviewer anything just to get them out of their hair. Informants view the questions being asked as "that is none of your business and there is no reason for an outsider to know what is being asked. I am not sure if it was John Turpin or Afolabi Epega that told me that Bascom had that problem when researching for his Ifa Divination book.

III. The very same. I was a financial backer with John, in what I understand to still be an unrealized effort to get the translation published. I have photo-copied pages that were bound at Kinkos.

You know that "six degrees of separation stuff" is scary! I met John years ago when he was touring with Janet Jackson. A client of mine is a close friends with John. Just so happens she is flying in today for a conference. Hell at this rate you, me and Doc Z might cousins!!!!!

Best regards,
Facundo

[zaragenca]

In order to debate about this subject there must be some knowledge about genesis....I have some questions ,(even before enter in the debate),.. which is the real name of BabaLu Aye?,...How the Fon/Tribe was created?,...what is the name of Shango?...who was the one which brought Ifa to Efe/Ile?.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158168198

[davidpenalosa]

Z,
If you put it that way, you "lost" the debate several posts ago.
-David

[Facundo]

1.
Are you guys talking about Benin City in Nigeria (Bini people) or the state of Benin, formerly Dahomey (Fon)?
2.
Shakpana (Babalú Ayé) / Dasoji is from former Dahomey,
3.
People can be of Yoruba, i.e. of Yoruban ethnic descent, and still be Muslims by confession; like, being German, I still could be a Buddhist.)

Hey Thomas,

1.
All my references to "Benin" have been The Republic of Benin (formally Dahomey) and NOT Benin City. Always good to clarify.
2.
Exactly the point I was making.
3.
Exactly

-David

Hey Thomas,

Nice to know someone else is following all of this. I concur with David's answers to your questions.

Best regards & welcome,
Facundo

[zaragenca]

Well I'm going to answer one question becouse there is already some information which is wrong,(as Facundo said,it is in relation to whom you talk to and how much true they want to give),...The name of Babalu Aye is Obaluaye,(Shango couldn't have anything to do with him becouse they did live in different time/frame)...he,(Obaluaye), was from Ile/Ife,and have a fight,with,(Ogun), which was Chief/military of Ife, after the death of Oduduwa, and went to live with the Araras and later became a globetrotter gaining a lot of knowledge...Many people in the Yoruba/Relion in Nigeria didn't know him becouse he left in an early stage of the development of the civilization and spend time with the Araras/people.... Shango have nothing to do with him,becouse Shango belong to the generation of Oranmiyan,(which is long time after). I would keep the other subject for later developments.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158183673

[Thomas Altmann]

Dr. Zaragemca and forum:

The original name of Babalú Ayé has been Shoponna /Shakpana/Sakpata, depending on the region in Africa. In Nigeria itself, the name Obaluaye was used in substitution for the proper name, in fear of calling epidemies/smallpox by speaking out the real name. The name Obaluayé is still preserved in Matanzas, Cuba, while in Brazil, he is called Omolú. In La Habana, the name Babalú Ayé kept stuck, although the original name, in Spanish "Chakuana", does appear sometimes, possibly as a particular camino of the Orisha. As you surely know, some people in Cuba even prefer to call him San Lazaro to this day - out of fear.

Dasoji, Asoyin, Soyí, Asojano is the Fon/Arará counterpart. You see, I have heard similar stories like Facundo's and yours, and this is what insecured me one time. I do remember the story with Changó; but this legend could have originated in Cuba. Anyway, I don't think it would be fruitful to insist on either of those tales. There are so many stories in the Yoruba mythology that contradict each other ... I suggest everybody may share his version but leave it at that. Dispute would make sense if we had had reliable literature of African historians from 1500 AD and before, but this is not the case, so let's open up to the possibility that there might have happened a syncretism. I believe each of these peoples must have had their own deity in charge of punishing their respective followers with mean illnesses. We know that both peoples have repeatedly been involved in quarrels and downright wars throughout the history. Who influenced whom, and in which way these encounters are reported in the mythology, is often due to mere political powerplay.

Alafia!

TA

[davidpenalosa]

There are so many stories in the Yoruba mythology that contradict each other

.....Who influenced whom, and in which way these encounters are reported in the mythology, is often due to mere political powerplay.

The Yoruba creation myth itself has two opposing versions involving Oddudua and Obatala.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

Today over at the Yahoo groups batadrums fourm, Amanda Vincent
posted the title and abstract of her recent thesis:

"Bata conversations - guardianship and entitlement narratives about the bata in Nigeria and Cuba.

(excerpt:)
...This thesis is about music, religion and power. The bata drum, which
originated in Nigeria and was transferred to Cuba via the trans-Atlantic slave trade, is at the heart of competing claims to religious and musical authenticity, authority, entitlement and guardianship...."

That seems to correlate with the topic of this thread.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1158209535

[Thomas Altmann]

The Yoruba creation myth itself has two opposing versions involving Oddudua and Obatala.
-David

Hi David,

that's what I had mentioned otherwise. Michael Marcuzzi had pointed that out to me one time.

Thomas

P.S. I hope the quote gets through. The new board design is nice, but some things do not yet work the way they did before. -TA

[zaragenca]

It doesn't matter which name they my called him in other lands,(which he did visit),Obaluaye is from Ile/Efe,there is not such thing as creating some for calling any Oloricha,(when they do something is for some reasons),and I have witnessde that many times in Cuba and everywhere,(there is not such thing of playing games with them)....San Lazaro have nothing to do with,(that is one of those Spanish mixtification)... neither Shango which was a Blcack/MAN, with Santa Barbara which is a white /woman....Anybody which have the opportunity to observed the reflex of these Olorichas during some ceremonies in Cuba,(through other people which have been mounted with them), know the real deal...And I have seen it several times since I was about 7 years old...so..... a close my case with that.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158255581

[Facundo]

Doc Z,

I agree with David which is why I have refrained from giving additional comments on the Benin bata issue. Please understand that I, unlike you, almost never take the position of giving the definitive answer on any of this subject matter. All too often I have seen how undependable the information can be from many of the so- called "scholarly sources" for reasons previously outlined. Additionally, there is often a big difference in the point of view on these topics between outsiders and the folks active in these traditions. Good academic scholarship certainly adds value and understanding but ought not be taken as definitive when running contrary to "community or in house" scholarship. With that caveat, I will engage your questions with the hope we don't enter into yet another verbal quagmire.

Thomas has, for the most part, correctly answered your questions and has also suggested the most appropriate frame for presenting our information and point of view on this topic. His input is much appreciated. The only correction I would make is that "Chakuana" is not a Spanish name for Babalu. Rather, it is just a creolized pronunciation of Shopona. Also, there are many names for Babalu in Lucumi as he has many roads or manifestations.

Doc, let me respond to your contention with regard to the Shango / Babalu affiliation. This speaks directly to the point I made about academics and practitioners. In Lucumi, whenever Babalu is received or fed, Shango is "always" a part of the ceremony. Again, this is related to the story/ myth/ history that was too long to post. I can't say that the same thing happens among the Arara in Cuba. Among the Arara Shango is called Hebioso.

Shango, the man, was the 4th Alafin of Oyo during the old Oyo empire. I believe this was during the 12th for 14th century. All of the Afafins of Oyo have had a problem with paying tribute to the Oni of Ife despite the fact that all the Obas from other locations in Yorubaland recognize the Oni as their head . This is even holds true today. There are many issues between these two groups that have been active for centuries.

Key to this discussion is the fact that the Orisha Shango is not given the importance in Ife that he receives in other areas of Yorubaland. Oramfe is the Orisha that occupies Shango's ward in Ife. It is also important to note that Orisha and Ifa practice is a nature based faith. In that all the Orisha are in some way associated with some aspect or phenomena of nature. Key and seldom recognized is that important personalities have been deified and their names substituted for the an aspect of nature propitiation with the old name either discarded or used as appellation for the deity. Their names are also used in allegorical myths, Ifa stories and Apatakis to illustrate the human conditions of life to include both flaws and triumphs. This makes for great difficulty in trying to distinguish between the "Historical deified Man" and the "Holy Archetypical forces in an of nature".

As to the historical origin of the Fon people, I don't know beyond them being part of a much larger migration that included many ethnic groups of West Africa. The migration was said to be led by Odudua. The Fon lay claim to Odudua being from their group according to the article I sent. Theologically, it is associated with Nana Buruku. Ife has an Orisha which is very much comparable called Iyeemu who survived Cuba as Yembo.

Yoruba theology has never been in a stuck in a frozen state. Quite the contrary, it constantly changes as it moves to new places to include and codify new information and changes in the human condition. The universe is for ever unfolding its' mysteries. Yoruba theology has remained open to make the necessary adjustments to help mankind better understand his existence and live in harmony with the universe. This is what my years of study and direct involvement with the Yoruba traditions have left me to conclude. Hope this addresses your disagreement.

Best regards,
Facundo

[Thomas Altmann]

The only correction I would make is that "Chakuana" is not a Spanish name for Babalu. Rather, it is just a creolized pronunciation of Shopona.

Hi Facundo - that's exactly what I wanted to say. TA

[zaragenca]

Brother Facundo,I would never take any importance from any Orisha,what I said was that Shango didn't have anything to do with Obaluaye going to the Araras/land,becouse they were living in a different time frame,(I made clear that Obaluaye belong to the Oduduwa, (time/frame), and Shango,belong to the Oranmiyan,(time/frame), the relation of them in ceremonies have nothing to do with facts..The Fon subject for later, also I would make a talk in relation of Oyo and the Ooni of Ife..Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158433079