Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

[Thomas Altmann]

Dr. Zaragemca:

I had to check back in Fasina Falade's Ifá book to ensure that Babalú Ayé is not Orisha but Irunmole, meaning he is a primordial deity, as opposed to Changó who was a living person (3rd or 4th alafin of Oyo) that merged with the ancient Jakuta deity after his earthly death. Oduduwa was the leader of the Yoruba migration to Ile Ife and the founder of their state, although Bolaji Idowu argues that he got this name from the (female) deity he worshipped.

In consequence, what makes both deities so different is that one of them had been a living person, while the other is a deity which is to be placed exclusively in the spiritual realm of religious mythology, no matter how often he had been incarnated or how serious his influence on the material world might be. So they are not exactly belonging to different time frames, but rather to different planes of reality.

I think it would not make sense if we tried to impose historical chronology onto the world of spirit (and divinity).

Generally spoken, Dr. Zaragemca, I have the impression that you tend to reject other opinions in order to maintain your own as the only correct information. To me, the meaning of discussion is less to win a dialectic race, but to gather different perspectives and then extract the (common or individual) conclusion that everybody can profit of. I would like to suggest this concept of communication to everybody. There are always more aspects to a given matter that you can think of yourself.

As far as I can see, you have a lot to tell from your time in Cuba, and I can assure you that I value your experience and your opinion very high, meaning I consider them seriously. I would take them even more serious, however, if you conceded the same intelligence to all the other minds here as well. Potentially, there can always be more than just one accurate perspective.

Hoping to learn more from you,

Thomas

P.S.: I found the following pataki in Michael Atwood Mason's "Living Santería":

"The oricha Babalú-Ayé, the god of the earth, infectious deseases, and healing, was driven out of the land of the orichas because he was too sick. He traveled to the land of the Arará where he bathed in the first river that he found. As he bathed, a boy with smallpox arrived. Babalú-Ayé told the boy to enter the water; as the child emerged, Babalú-Ayé wrapped him in a purple and white cloth and told him to return home. When the child's parents saw him, they asked where he had gotten such a beautiful cloth; as the father removed the cloth, he saw that the boy no longer had smallpox. the child then told what had happened. After a time, word of the transformation spread and people came to the child for healing. Because of his success as a healer, in time, he was made the king of Arará."

Mason credited oríate Santiago Pedroso (in Philadelphia) for this story and related it to the Odu Ojuani-Odi.

TA

[arsenio]

Did you get any permission to talk about those sacred things as Orishas and their sacred toques, it takes years to learn them and you can hear them during sacred Santeria-ceremonies....

Arsenio.

[ABAKUA]

Arsenio, the info is available world wide.
That kind of outlook is not very welcome here...

[arsenio]

Since fernando Ortiz, there is a lot of information on Santeria, in the open, but this does not mean that the high priests of Santeria, are happy with it.

Asking a question is allowed, I hope.......

Cheers,
Arsenio.

[Facundo]

Dr. Zaragemca:

I had to check back in Fasina Falade's Ifá book to ensure that Babalú Ayé is not Orisha but Irunmole, meaning he is a primordial deity, as opposed to Changó who was a living person (3rd or 4th alafin of Oyo) that merged with the ancient Jakuta deity after his earthly death. Oduduwa was the leader of the Yoruba migration to Ile Ife and the founder of their state, although Bolaji Idowu argues that he got this name from the (female) deity he worshipped.

In consequence, what makes both deities so different is that one of them had been a living person, while the other is a deity which is to be placed exclusively in the spiritual realm of religious mythology, no matter how often he had been incarnated or how serious his influence on the material world might be. So they are not exactly belonging to different time frames, but rather to different planes of reality.

I think it would not make sense if we tried to impose historical chronology onto the world of spirit (and divinity).

Generally spoken, Dr. Zaragemca, I have the impression that you tend to reject other opinions in order to maintain your own as the only correct information. To me, the meaning of discussion is less to win a dialectic race, but to gather different perspectives and then extract the (common or individual) conclusion that everybody can profit of. I would like to suggest this concept of communication to everybody. There are always more aspects to a given matter that you can think of yourself.


P.S.: I found the following pataki in Michael Atwood Mason's "Living Santería":

Mason credited oríate Santiago Pedroso (in Philadelphia) for this story and related it to the Odu Ojuani-Odi.

TA

Thanks Thomas,

Your points are well taken. However, I would still maintain that in the case of ancient Yoruba history, mythology and history are too intertwined to extract real history without using other disciplines such as archeology as well as multiple sources for corroboration. We also have to remember that the written word issued by persons such as Falade, Idowu and others do not hold automatic legitimacy. Their informants are often only relaying local accounts of a particular subject. We must also be aware of biases that might be a byproduct of their discourse. This is especially true with Idowu. His work Olodumare book was his doctoral thesis for his theology degree which used Christianity as the benchmark for presenting his information. The late Fela Sowande took great exception to much of what Idowu wrote and viewed him as an apologist.

I could not agree with you more with regard to " imposing historical chronology on to the world of spirit and divinity". That was one of the points I was trying to make. Thanks for mentioning Jakuta. His reputation did merge with the accounts of Shango. This also serves to illustrate my disagreement with you on Shango being a living person and Obaluaye being an Irunmale. Shango is also remembered as both Irunmale and an Alafin of Oyo. You may have heard this song in Cuba:

Ogodo foma Imale, Ogodo foma Imale.
Obaoso Alafin ni Oyo, Ogodo foma ima Imale.

Also: Yakuta (Jakuta) ela ulala . . .
Which is a phrase from another song for Chango in Cuba.

The preservations of Yoruba theology in Cuba are amazing. I would venture to speculate that the Cuba association with Babalu and Shango did not start in Cuba. I also confidently assert that it is too difficult to determine if the accounts are mythology or history.

It is interesting to see Santiago's name in a post. I worked with him many time when he lived in my town. He is very knowledgeable and is Puntilla's godfather.
Again, one would have to ask was that apataki created just to illustrate something for divination purposes and is that also history?

Best regards,
Facundo

[Thomas Altmann]

Arsenio,

First I wished I could put in a yawning "emoticon" here, but I'll try to keep my reply as objective as I can.

1. Nobody else but the "high priests of Santeria" themselves could ever have revealed those things, otherwise they would not be known. And obviously they decided to do so.

2. The things I mentioned in my post are not at all to be kept secret. This was just information that helps everybody understand the religion better.

3. I do not belong to the people who need a religion to be told what I am allowed to do and what not. There are things I would definitely not talk about in an open forum, such as ritual details. I have often enough denied to do or say certain things out of religious consciousness, and I can assure you I know exactly what I'm doing.

4. All kinds of religious communities worldwide are crowded by believers who use fear and restriction as a last means to enact power over others, but they are just barking dogs behind too narrow fences, with aggression being the next degree on the scale of anxiety. Yoruba religion is no exception to this. I am not going to even try to avoid the indignation of those poor people, because I can't help. And asking for their permission would be the last thing ...

5. The people who have recorded the songs and toques on LPs and CDs and DVDs are all omoanyá - at least, if not olorisha or awó. I have several shelves full of them. I don't think you would go and ridicule yourself by asking those people who gave them the permission.
Now that I'm aborisha, onifá and omoanyá myself, I am proud to administer my responsibility wisely, and I always will. In doing so, I have chosen to be on the side of those much respected priests who have okán odara and use their godgiven brains to help create a better (fear-free) world.

And I will never look back again.

Aché,

Thomas



Edited By Thomas Altmann on 1158662268

[ABAKUA]

Well spoken Thomas.

[arsenio]

A clear answer to start with, Yes a lot of the things you are taking about were revealed by Yoruba-priests but that is not a permission to talk about them or to publish them.

Secondly not to reveal everything was inspired by such things as the slave trade for allmost 500 years, furthermore slave history in Cuba meant that all what was African should be destroyed.

I am sure you are white and no black Cuban, because he would immediately know to what I was refering, for the preservation of the Santeria heritage millions of Yoruba have suffered in Nigeria and Cuba, and elsewhere, so pay respect to the dead, may they live again...

Arsenio,
hijo de Chango

[ABAKUA]

Arsenio, nowhere is he insulting the dead or anyone for that matter.
You are the only one bordering on insulting people on here.
I ask you ease up on the assumptions.
We are all here because of our love for the drum.
No room for ego's here.

Regards,

Marcelo.

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... Small_.JPG

[Facundo]

Did you get any permission to talk about those sacred things as Orishas and their sacred toques, it takes years to learn them and you can hear them during sacred Santeria-ceremonies....

Arsenio.

Arsenio,

First off, there are no secrets being discussed here. Hopefully, what is being talked about adds understanding for those who may not be familiar with the information. As an Oluo (one who has made ocha and passed to Ifa) myself with many years of initiation, I think it is important that the general public grows to have a better understanding for what has been maligned as "African hocus pocus". Nothing could be further from the truth. African spirituality has every bit the depth and profundity of any of the major world religions if not more. The fact that it has survived for so long under very difficult social situations is not a testimony to man's reluctance to give up superstitions rather it exemplifies its' ability to remain relevant through the ages!

Ortiz, was not the only scholar to write about this subject. There have been many who have written in depth about various topics. Hope this adequately answers your questions.

Abakua - I see no harm in what was asked and think no ill will was intended.

Best regards,
Facundo

[arsenio]

Abakua is responding as if he was a former member of the censorship of the Sovjet Union. This forum is coming to live, by putting things as clear as possible, and by making clear statements.

On Bàtà I have a different opinion as the former members who contributed, it is only after the Cuban revolution that those drums are used in populair music and that the dances of the orishas, are used by the National Folkloristic Ensemble of Cuba, but, a lot of high priests of Santeria, have resisted this or are against it.

There is a lot of cult tourism going on at the moment, and a lot of fake shows but this is not as it was meant by the ancestors.

I know, in Timba they make use of a lot of sacred toques of the Orishas, but not everybody is happy with it....

Ifa, ifa, ifa
Arsenio

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Facundo,

it's hard to comment on your post from my side, because I cannot really find anything controversial to what I was saying. We both agree that Changó had once been living. I agree with you that Changó is both Irunmole and Orisha - and, by the way, I find it often hard to discern these two categories. I was trying to express this ambivalence by identifying the Jakuta syncretism as the trigger for Changó's evolution. Fact is, however, that Changó was (also) a living person, unlike Babalú-Ayé, whose earthly existence cannot be proven. So, Changó is undoubtedly (also) history, while Babalú isn't - at least it is not known. If you could promote the thesis that Babalú did in fact once live as a human being, there we would have a disagreement.

In most cases, though, historians are left alone with myths that reflect historical truth in a very un-scientific way. I think it's true that it would be virtually impossible to separate the myths from what we generally call the historical facts.

As to Oduduwa, I have not yet heard anyone question the generally acknowledged assumption that he was the leader and founder of the Yoruba empire; so he was a political and, as such, a historical figure as well as Orisha. Most Yoruba kings are automatically assigned godlike qualities, but the fact that Oduduwa advanced relatively fast to the status of a creator deity (and thereby Irunmole) must in my opinion have been fostered by a syncretism with a backing archdivinity. Idowu offers an explanation to this idea, and although he might well have been a Christian apologist (as Olumide Lucas, too), he does not seem to show that in this instance.

I think you cannot compare Falade with Idowu and put them in the same bag. Falade is a babalawo who had studied with Popoola in Ile Ife, and in his great book he does not show any intention to relate Ifá to Christian theology. In my opinion it is one of the most trustworthy books that you can find. By the way, he mentioned Changó exclusively as Irunmole; so the fact that I dared to stress his human/historical nature should be enough proof to the fact that I am not relying on any "automatic legitimacy".

The second song you mentioned sounds familiar to me, but I can't remember having heard it in Cuba. The first one I don't know. It is indeed a splendid example for the continuity of the cult, even though I cannot translate the text literally. Could you help me?

Again, one would have to ask was that apataki created just to illustrate something for divination purposes and is that also history?

- You know, after all I think - given the fact that probably nobody will ever be able to clarify this - after hundreds and thousands of years this question ceases to hold any significance for priests, and for anthropologists alike. Don't you think so?

Greetings, Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

I know, in Timba they make use of a lot of sacred toques of the Orishas, but not everybody is happy with it....

Arsenio,
The most important batalelros involved in the mixing of bata with popular music have been some of the most respected masters within the religion: Francisco Aguabella, Mario Jauergui, and the late Julito Collazo, Regino Jimenez and Jesus Perez, just to name a few.

If the orisha are not pleased with how someone has intergrated sacred elements into popular music, the orisha will act accordingly.
-David

[OLSONGO]

I have been reading this post with a lot of interest and thankfull to the persons who have contributed with their knowldge, as I have learned things that I have heard of fragmently, but didn't know much about.
What brought me here is the love of drum and the sound of the Bata. And this thing of secrecy... I can say that over 30 years my religion or philisophy has been Taoism, as I found that out of all of the religions on earth, it has contributed the most in order to leave on this planet , espiritually and materialistic; without secrecies. All at the reach of every common folk so that we can be at peace and in balance.
And always reminding us that at times we have to empty our cup in order to fill it up again.

Paz OLSONGO

[Facundo]

Hi Facundo,

it's hard to comment on your post from my side, because I cannot really find anything controversial to what I was saying.

If you could promote the thesis that Babalú did in fact once live as a human being, there we would have a disagreement.


As to Oduduwa, I have not yet heard anyone question the generally acknowledged assumption that he was the leader and founder of the Yoruba empire; so he was a political and, as such, a historical figure as well as Orisha. Most Yoruba kings are automatically assigned godlike qualities, but the fact that Oduduwa advanced relatively fast to the status of a creator deity (and thereby Irunmole) must in my opinion have been fostered by a syncretism with a backing archdivinity. Idowu offers an explanation to this idea, and although he might well have been a Christian apologist (as Olumide Lucas, too), he does not seem to show that in this instance.

I think you cannot compare Falade with Idowu and put them in the same bag. Falade is a babalawo who had studied with Popoola in Ile Ife, and in his great book he does not show any intention to relate Ifá to Christian theology.

The second song you mentioned sounds familiar to me, but I can't remember having heard it in Cuba. The first one I don't know. It is indeed a splendid example for the continuity of the cult, even though I cannot translate the text literally. Could you help me?

Again, one would have to ask was that apataki created just to illustrate something for divination purposes and is that also history?

- You know, after all I think - given the fact that probably nobody will ever be able to clarify this - after hundreds and thousands of years this question ceases to hold any significance for priests, and for anthropologists alike. Don't you think so?

Thomas,

I was not trying to infer that you were saying anything controversial. Quite the contrary, we are very much on the same page in this discussion. No, I can not show that Babalu was incarnate at one time. As to the works of both Lucus and Idowu, I have learned a lot from both. I was just stressing the importance of knowing the background of the authors you read on this subject matter. Which brings be to Falade. I know he has close relationships with Ile Ife which is why I mentioned the possibility of regional biasses of one's informants. Never the less, I value his work a great deal. Popoola is a fantastic Babalawo who has done very valuable work. No disagreement there either. My comment about automatic legitimacy was more for folks like Doc Z who seem to swear by their sources.

My Yoruba language skills need a lot of work. I do know that many of the songs of today come to us a fragments from orisha oriki which are like long praise poems. Literal translations are difficult because they often must be extracted from their allegorical implications and the context in which they are used. This is what I know:

Good is one of the many names or appellations used for Change. This can be found in many songs for him. According to what I was told it says that Shango was so great he became an Imale as well as the Alafin of Oyo. Not sure if that is fully correct but is what I was told. I will do some work with the words and see if I can come up with more.

To answer your last question : Yes, I think you are right.

Loving the dialogue,
Facundo