Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

Let's discuss about the origin and history of this beautiful instrument...

Postby arsenio » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:21 am

Guys,

I think my 2 articles are a confirmation of my positions.

First, The Yoruba-tradition was more or less absent from Cuban popular music and this changed during the 50s and especially after the revolution cullminating in Timba in the 90s.

Second, popular Cuban music mostly derives from Kongo, Ewe-Fon and Abakua origin and not from Yoruba -origin, this picture is changing, but only recently.

Third, the article on Dunham shows that under conditions of the afro american Jazz movement especially during the 40s en the 50s, afro-americans are starting to rediscover their African Roots by traveling to Cuba and investigating Afro-cuban culture, especially afro-cuban religions, out of this came the Cubop or Afro-Cuban Jazz during the 50s, more or less a Mambo-movement.

Forth, of course there is more to say about the Yoruba tradition going to New York, and yes, some important people have been neglected, but that does not change my theses or positions.

Fifth, the Yoruba-Santeria tradition is a very beautiful tradition and helps the Cubans to create a new sense of Afro-cuban identity during the 90s in Cuba, we get an Afro-Cuban Jazz Renaissance in Havana in this period and the center of this music is shifting from New York to Havana.

Ifa,
Arsenio.
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Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:00 am

arsenio wrote:>>...popular Cuban music mostly derives from Kongo, Ewe-Fon and Abakua origin and not from Yoruba -origin, this picture is changing, but only recently.

Arsenio,
The Kongo influence was a significant contributor to the structure of Cuban popular music. That's probably because the Congolese were in Cuba longer than any of the other ethnic groups you mentioned.

There's an Abakua influence in rumba, but I doubt you can cite any Abakua influence in son. Granted, certain Fon influences are strong in the Oriente, but there is no descernible Ewe-Fon elements in the structure of Cuban popular music.

The same goes for Yoruba music. There's no no descernible Yoruba influence in the structure of Cuban popular music. However, the quoting of Yoruba melodies and rhythms has been present in Cuban popular music at least as far back as Sexteto Habanero and the first phonographic records. It definitely was happening well before the Revolution.
-David
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Postby arsenio » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:01 am

Dear David,

My response is after your response.

The Kongo influence was a significant contributor to the structure of Cuban popular music. That's probably because the Congolese were in Cuba longer than any of the other ethnic groups you mentioned.

To my knowledge this is correct, but they were present in Andalusia or the South of Spain also, in the Spanish Golden Age, and contributed heavily to the development of Rumba and Son.

There's an Abakua influence in rumba, but I doubt you can cite any Abakua influence in son. Granted, certain Fon influences are strong in the Oriente, but there is no descernible Ewe-Fon elements in the structure of Cuban popular music.

There is the clave Naniga which influenced Son during the forties, the son-clave 2/3 is called Okpokolo (wood block in English) in the Ibo region of Nigéria. Ignacio Pineiro was of Abakua-origin, actually a rumbero of Havana, which structured his Sones, as if they were rumba guaguancos.

The cinquillo which is part of Cuban danzon, danza derived from Ewe-Fon traditions in the Oriente, trans- mitted through Haïti.

The same goes for Yoruba music. There's no no descernible Yoruba influence in the structure of Cuban popular music. However, the quoting of Yoruba melodies and rhythms has been present in Cuban popular music at least as far back as Sexteto Habanero and the first phonographic records. It definitely was happening well before the Revolution.

I think Celia Cruz was of Yoruba origin she heavily influenced Cuban popular music by Sonora Mantacera, her style of singing reminds my of singing to the Orishas.

Yes, Sexteto Habanero used Yoruba influence, to some people the tango congo pattern used heavily in the 30s and the Ogun rthyme on Batà drums is the same.

Conclusion: Yoruba-Santeria influence is coming out to the surface in the 50s, f.e. by Mercidita Valdes and Celia Cruz, and this is no accident because Nigeria and the Yoruba are struggling for independence and this had a major impact on the Cuban Yorubas.

Ifa,

-David/Arsenio.
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Postby ABAKUA » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:36 pm

Remind you of anyone?

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Postby Facundo » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:56 pm

Thanks Abaqua,

I needed that!

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Postby zaragenca » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:00 pm

The influence of the Cuban/music,(from the african point of view).started with the Araras,which was the firts 'Cabildo' set up in Cuba and the inetraction of the Congos,(Dia de Reyes Celebration),and Carabalies,(Abakuas)

The influence of the Cuban/music,(from the african point of view).started with the Araras,which was the first 'Cabildo' set up in Cuba and the interaction of the Congos,(Dia de Reyes Celebration),and Carabalies,(Abakuas),they were interacting in the Rumba with they different appraoch and creating different percussion parameters in relation to the leads,(solos),and in the competition for the yearly celebration,(Carnival),..and I still have the opportunity to witness this development when I was growing up with the Die/hard rumberos in Cuba.Dr. Zaragemca

Continuetion,(I can't edit so I have to use this appraoch),...The Yoruba interaction with the other african/patterns started with the invitation of the two 'Monsters' of Afrocuban percussion,Gilberto Valdez,and dr. Obdulio Morales to the bataleros and congeros for interaction in the multi/percussion development of cuban rhythms,..Celia Cruz never became initiated into the Yurubas/religion,(expressed by herself),..Mercedita Valdez,Senaida,Barroso,etc.,were the one which became Obaloshas.Dr. Zaragemca




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Postby arsenio » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:42 pm

Zaragemca,

My response is after yours.

The influence of the Cuban/music,(from the african point of view).started with the Araras,which was the firts 'Cabildo' set up in Cuba and the inetraction of the Congos,(Dia de Reyes Celebration),and Carabalies,(Abakuas)

I am sure that the start of Cuban music is in the South of Spain, Andalusia, during the 15th century, there were already transportation of Kongo-Angola slaves to Spain, in the South of Spain those Dia the Reyes Celebration and/or Carnival and Cabildos started, later on, copied in Cuba and other parts of the New World.

Araras or people from Dahomey, Ewe-Fon, were indeed the first transported to Haïti and from there to Cuba, they were in Cuba long before the Yoruba or Carabali.

Abakua is refering to Ibibio but also to Ibo and early in the slave trade they were transported to Haïti and from there to Cuba especially the east or Oriente, so they were there before their brothers were transported especially to Havana in the 19 th century.

Conclusion: Kongo-Angola slaves contributed to Cuban/Spanish music for over 5 centuries!

The influence of the Cuban/music,(from the african point of view).started with the Araras,which was the first 'Cabildo' set up in Cuba and the interaction of the Congos,(Dia de Reyes Celebration),and Carabalies,(Abakuas),they were interacting in the Rumba with they different appraoch and creating different percussion parameters in relation to the leads,(solos),and in the competition for the yearly celebration,(Carnival),..and I still have the opportunity to witness this development when I was growing up with the Die/hard rumberos in Cuba.Dr. Zaragemca

There is or was interaction between different African groups, Kongos, Araras and Carabalies on the plantations of Haïti and the East of Cuba, they learnt to play each other music and dances, but most dominant were Kongo dances and Kongo music.

When Yorubas were coming in, on a great scale during the 19th century, they started to interact with those other groups on the Cuban plantations.

Continuetion,(I can't edit so I have to use this appraoch),...The Yoruba interaction with the other african/patterns started with the invitation of the two 'Monsters' of Afrocuban percussion,Gilberto Valdez,and dr. Obdulio Morales to the bataleros and congeros for interaction in the multi/percussion development of cuban rhythms,..Celia Cruz never became initiated into the Yurubas/religion,(expressed by herself),..Mercedita Valdez,Senaida,Barroso,etc.,were the one which became Obaloshas.

Celia Cruz made an elpee dedicated to the Orishas together with Mercedita and Lazaro, she was dancing the steps of Ochun and Yemaya on stage, she was a Santera, her best kept secret.

The interaction between Kongos and Yorubas especially between Kongo Ngoma drums and Yoruba batá drums started in Matanzas, on the plantations, especially during the 19th century.

But popular Cuban music is based on old Kongo-Angola musical models such as mambu (mambo, lumba (rumba), Nkunga or Kunga (Conga) which also means poem, song, an old african or KiKongo-word for Son.

Nkunga

nkunga = canto, son, poema, salmo, himno en idioma congo.
nkunga = canto, baile y música para los esclavos del siglo XIX en Cuba.

Fernando Ortiz: Los instrumentos de la música afrocubana.

Conclusion: Cuban popular music, mambo, rumba and son are of Kongo or Congo origin.

Ifa,
Arsenio.
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Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:50 pm

arsenio wrote:1... the son-clave 2/3 is called Okpokolo (wood block in English) in the Ibo region of Nigéria.

2. The cinquillo which is part of Cuban danzon, danza derived from Ewe-Fon traditions in the Oriente, trans- mitted through Haïti.

3. I think Celia Cruz was of Yoruba origin she heavily influenced Cuban popular music by Sonora Mantacera, her style of singing reminds my of singing to the Orishas.

4. Yes, Sexteto Habanero used Yoruba influence, to some people the tango congo pattern used heavily in the 30s and the Ogun rthyme on Batà drums is the same.

5. Conclusion: Yoruba-Santeria influence is coming out to the surface in the 50s, f.e. by Mercidita Valdes and Celia Cruz, and this is no accident because Nigeria and the Yoruba are struggling for independence and this had a major impact on the Cuban Yorubas.

1. could you please expand upon this? You seem to think that the Ibo and the Abakua ( are related. They are not.

2. The cinquillo is a universal pattern throughout sub-Saharan Africa. It is found amoung the coastal Ewe and the inland Congos. I take your point however. It's plausible.

3. Her style of singing may remind you of singing to the Orishas, but when Celia sang guaracha, she sang guaracha.

4. Thank you. Yes, I forgot about the that popular rhythm from the 40's.

5. If that's your conclusion, then I'd have to say you have not presented anywhere near enough evidence.

-David




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Postby Facundo » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:59 pm

arsenio wrote:Guys,

I think my 2 articles are a confirmation of my positions.

First, The Yoruba-tradition was more or less absent from Cuban popular music and this changed during the 50s and especially after the revolution cullminating in Timba in the 90s.

Second, popular Cuban music mostly derives from Kongo, Ewe-Fon and Abakua origin and not from Yoruba -origin, this picture is changing, but only recently.

Third, the article on Dunham shows that under conditions of the afro american Jazz movement especially during the 40s en the 50s, afro-americans are starting to rediscover their African Roots by traveling to Cuba and investigating Afro-cuban culture, especially afro-cuban religions, out of this came the Cubop or Afro-Cuban Jazz during the 50s, more or less a Mambo-movement.

Forth, of course there is more to say about the Yoruba tradition going to New York, and yes, some important people have been neglected, but that does not change my theses or positions.

Fifth, the Yoruba-Santeria tradition is a very beautiful tradition and helps the Cubans to create a new sense of Afro-cuban identity during the 90s in Cuba, we get an Afro-Cuban Jazz Renaissance in Havana in this period and the center of this music is shifting from New York to Havana.

Ifa,
Arsenio.

Arsenio,

Essentially, your comments and the position you have taken were not relative to the core topic when you first entered the discussion. I have responded only to the comments that were relative to bata which, would naturally include traditional African cultural practices. Specifically, statements by you that were incorrect:

" First, there were before the Revolution, Cuban musicians, using Bàtà, but not on a regular basis, for example Bebo Valdes, by creating his version of the mambo, called batanga.
And:
"In Cuba, before the Revolution, everything related to Africa was forbidden, that is way Cuban Son is actually a disguised Cuban Rumba."

Examples were sited by myself and Thomas that well demonstrated your error.
Please note that you seem to be contradicting your own position as you now say:

"The same goes for Yoruba music. There's no no discernible Yoruba influence in the structure of Cuban popular music. However, the quoting of Yoruba melodies and rhythms has been present in Cuban popular music at least as far back as Sexteto Habanero and the first phonographic records. "It definitely was happening well before the Revolution."

Popular music was never part of this discussion before you raised the issue. However, dialogue was offered in response. I did not comment because I have no real interest in that aspect of Cuban musical history. However, I do disagree with your premise that Yoruba influences are fairly recent. In my view, your assertion is a "rush to judgement". The Yoruba people and have been the most dominant African influence to Cuban culture. In their homeland they are essentially an urban people which, for me, would lend greatly to the types of areas that they would influence the overall culture. Additionally, the repertoire of songs and melodies, retained in and throughout slavery is tremendous. The degree of retention of the Yoruba language is another key aspect to be considered. Yoruba has been far better preserved in Cuba than any other African language and is far less creollzed than Ki Kong for example. I was made aware of this when my Oluo from Nigeria visited me in the States. I played a recording of Egun songs from Cuba and he translated their meaning with much surprise to both of us and grate joy to him in what had been retained.

To a large extent, many of the African Cultures retained in Cuba exist as an adjunct to the Yoruba system. Abakua is a male society and along with Palo (Kongo) are secondary initiations to those of the Yoruba. Those who specalize or function primarily in Palo often don't agree with that positon.

All in all, I think that before anyone can say their is "little discernible Yoruba influences in early popular music", the discerner must be evaluated. How familiar are they with all aspects of Yoruba music, how much do they understand the various African indigenous cultures? There is just too much evidence for me that runs contrary to your position on this issue. But then again, it is not a subject that I have deep interest.

I also disagree with your 3rd item and the assessment of Dunham and the 40 & 50 time period. While there were a few African Americans intellectuals that sought to reconnect with African aspects of their identity, they were few and far between. That did not change until the civil rights movement in the sixties. African religions became an area of investigation for American Blacks in the late part of the sixties. That is directly related to your 4th item which is far more involved than your article talked about.

Your 5th item: "Yoruba . . . helps the Cubans create a "new" sense of Afro-Cuban identity in the 90s". Quite the contrary. Yoruba culture has woven in and throughout Cuban culture from the inception! We you are seeing is the rest of the world coming to understand what has made Cuba so unique! There is no potent Cuban culture without African influences and most notably Yoruba influences. Cubans vibrance is fired by what has been deposited there by Africans.

My issue with what you have offered in this discussion is the conclusions based on superficial evidence. Again, one has to be very familiar with the core culture of influence in its' place of origin to the contributions to other cultures. I am not sure if it was Bascom or Herskivits (sp) who said that "what is generally called southern hospitality is really West African hospitality." That assessment was made because they had been in close contact with both West Africans and Europeans in their indigenous environments.

Best regards,
Facundo
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Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:01 am

Facundo wrote:1.
"The same goes for Yoruba music. There's no no discernible Yoruba influence in the structure of Cuban popular music. However, the quoting of Yoruba melodies and rhythms has been present in Cuban popular music at least as far back as Sexteto Habanero and the first phonographic records. "It definitely was happening well before the Revolution."

2.
Yoruba has been far better preserved in Cuba than any other African language and is far less creollzed than Ki Kong for example.

3.
..To a large extent, many of the African Cultures retained in Cuba exist as an adjunct to the Yoruba system.

4.
All in all, I think that before anyone can say their is "little discernible Yoruba influences in early popular music", the discerner must be evaluated. How familiar are they with all aspects of Yoruba music, how much do they understand the various African indigenous cultures? There is just too much evidence for me that runs contrary to your position on this issue. But then again, it is not a subject that I have deep interest.

Facundo,
I think this new format for "quotes" may be confusing. I know I’ve had some difficulty with it.

1.
This quote you attributed to Arsenio was actually written by me. Therefore, Arsenio did not contradict himself. I contradicted Arsenio, as I’ve been apt to do.

2.
I agree. However, the more creolized Congolese influences are the foundation of the Afro-Cuban hybirds: rumba, comparsa, son, etc. The more recently arrived Yoruba have musically only influenced these hybrids superficially. In other words, Yoruba influences have sometimes been superimposed over the largely Congo-based original Cuban genres.

3.
Yes, but that hierarchical order does not reflect the musical influence of the Yoruba in original Cuban music.

4. You are quoting me again, so I’ll respond. For the moment, let’s say you and I are the "discerners" here. I can identify Congolese and Efik (abakua) influences in rumba. The yambu and guaguanco have inherited moves from transplanted Congolese fertility dances. Central to guaguanco is the pelvic thrust called the "vacunao" (vaccination), a move found in the Cuban-Congolese dances yuka and makuta. The guaguanco and Congolese drum ensembles consists of conical hand drums and a piece of bamboo played with sticks (guagua).

The quinto undoubtedly inherited its contra-clave phrases from the abakua bonko. One significant difference between bonko and quinto is the fact that bonko is in 6/8 and quinto is poly-metric (6/8 and 4/4 simultaneously). To understand the connection between the two lead drums, it’s helpful to compare the more 6/8 quinto of columbia with bonko. These two lead parts share identical patterns and similar phrasing. Abakua members were some of the important historical contributors to the male solo dancing found in columbia.

I can get more specific, but that’s a good starting place. Other than the occasional use of orisha coros, I can’t detect any Yoruba foundational influences in rumba. Can you offer any examples of Yoruba music contributing to the structure of rumba or any other popular Cuban rhythm?
-David




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Postby zaragenca » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:51 pm

To brother Arsenio, in this reference we are talking to what happened in Cuba,if we are going to make reference to when the first african were transported to Europe,then we could go as far as the Greek/Empire and the Rome/Empire were a lo of african were also transported to those places as not only as slave but also as skillful traders,(including musicians)...There could be some interaction of differents tribes in the East of Cuba,but the Guaguanco,NACIO EN LA HABANA Y DESPUES FUE LLEVADO A MATANZAS Y EL RESTO THE CUBA...Ther is not way that Celia Cruz could keep being initiated a secret,becouse it involved a lot of people,(never it would possible to denied it herself),being famouse it would have surfaced long time ago whoever was the Godfather,Godmother,the bataleros,etc.,etc..Dr. Zaragemca
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Postby SkinDeep » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:49 pm

arsenio wrote:Celia Cruz made an elpee dedicated to the Orishas together with Mercedita and Lazaro, she was dancing the steps of Ochun and Yemaya on stage, she was a Santera, her best kept secret.

I HAVE TO DISAGREE ON THAT, CELIA RECORDED SO MANY RECORDS MAKING REFERENCES TO THE ORISHAS, SO HOW CAN IT BE A BEST KEPT SECRET?

AND LET'S NOT FORGET VOL.2 :D




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MOFORIBALE AL TAMBO!!!
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Postby JohnnyConga » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:09 am

Celia was known to "carry" her 'santos' with her all over the world.....

Zara have u ever heard of Candita Batista?......"JC" Johnny Conga..... :D
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Postby ABAKUA » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:34 pm

You should all know by now, if Gerry (zara) doesnt know about it or does not agree with it, it is wrong/never happened/incorrect. ???
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Postby Berimbau » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:58 pm

Sorry Abakua,
According to Dr. Z - YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!


GET OUT OF THE LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!


NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


heee heeee,



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