Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

[arsenio]

david,

No, no the points I am making on the issue of Bàtà are all in this beautiful article of ivor miller,

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/ivormiller/Jesus.pdf

And trying to understand Cuban Son as a kind of disguised rumba, should read the following article,

A. G. Quintero Rivera, "The camouflaged drum: melodization of rythms and maroonage ethnicity in Caribbean peasant music".

How do you camouflage rumba-drums by using melody instruments such as tres, guitar...

Slavery and repressions made them very creative....

Cheers,
Arsenio.



Edited By arsenio on 1158732126

[zaragenca]

There are a lot of debates which it is hard to follow through...To Thomas..somebody should tel you that the purpose of the 'Patakis',isn't to make a chronologic history of Africa,it was created by the Babalwos for the perpose of the best way to convey the message of the oracle of Ifa,I have in my hands when I was in Cuba a lot of Patakis,(that is the reason that Orichas which didn't have relationchip in real live have been used in the creation of some Patakis,and also animals,(to create characters,etc.etc.)...As I said Obaluaye IS NOT, a ficticious personality but a real leader which moved out of Ife during the death of Oduduwa,(also several other people which I don't need to mention now),but in the Patakis he has been mixtified with San Lazaro,(Obaluaye was a black/middle age men, when moving out of Ife,not a white/Oldmen,also the 'Muletas' which are used for San Lazaro,doesn't have anything to do with the Yorubas/culture,(that is a hispanic/thing)....To Arsenio the Son is a product of what was called as early as 1830, 'Habanera',(which some influence from the Charangas Tipicas, with incorporated some structure of the Son in the last movement of the Danzon since the late 1800's...La Guaracha have more influence of rumba from its begining,but ....anyway,some groups have incorporated elements of the rumba in the Son which is called Son/Montuno,Songo,etc....In relation to the Batas in the popular Music,..even when it is true that some Bataleros incorporated non consacrated Batas to play shows,there were a lot of Bataleros,and Oriates, which were oppossed to it...... Which the exception of Jesus Peres,the others Bataleros didn't have anything to say about it in the early 40's,(when the Bata was incorporated into the shows), becouse they were not Olu Batas at that time anyway....When katherine Dunhan went to Cuba she was expecting to get Olu/Batas to play with her,but not Olu/Batalero wanted to do it,neither they could get a Bata to take it out of Cuba,(so they fing some Haitian/drums,Djembes,and Congas for the Dancing Ensemble)..If I missed something we could continue the conversation.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158769298

[davidpenalosa]

.... the Son is a product of what was called as early as 1830, 'Habanera',(which some influence from the Charangas Tipicas,

The Habanera comes from the contra danza and is not a "product" of the son.
-Captain Corrector

[zaragenca]

Welcome brother David,..'Habanera' was a generic name which was used for anything coming out of Cuba,and,(there were different musical structures used by Orquestras Tipicas,and by Charangas(in Cuba those rhythms weren't called Habaneras),but the root of what later was structured in the formation of the Son,(which at that time was called in New Orleans 'Cakewalk', was there,( the Syncopation the Cinquillo,the Pulse,the Double Bass switched from marking the 1,2,and3 first beats,into getting in a syncopated pattern,(it was later incorporated into the sextetos when the Bass was incorporated into that musical/group.......Also I want to take this post to oint out something which I missed in the other topic...never neither during the Civil War of Nigeria in the 1860's or before there were a large groups of Yorubas/people taken to Cuba,(we have the date of the Cabildos,the name of the Cabildos,etc),..the womans and the first Babalawo which became the initial Oriates in Cuba and took that knowledge from Habana to Matanzas arrived to Cuba in the 1830's..(and there are only a handful of them,...everybody else in Cuba got into the Yoruba/Religion through initiation,(and we have the whole historical sequences of initiations,so I don't know from where they are going to get they numbers.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158773309

[Thomas Altmann]

To Thomas..somebody should tel you that ...

Dr. Zaragemca, I am not your ten-years-old nephew, so I would appreciate if you eased yourself to talk to me in a normal, respectful way, especially if ...

... the purpose of the 'Patakis',isn't to make a chronologic history of Africa, ...

... you unnecessarily criticize a point I have never made! I have no idea where in my messages you could have read a respective statement.

... it was created by the Babalwos for the perpose of the best way to convey the message of the oracle of Ifa,

I share your opinion that the bulk of itan or pataki was created by babalawos; I think it's most probable. But these stories are so old - I wasn't there when they were told for the first time. So perhaps some of the legends could have been folk stories that had found their way, or had been incorporated in the odu corpus by babalawos rough and ready. Some of the patakis, especially of the Dilogun, might have been created by oriates in Cuba before the first babalawo set his foot on the island. I would be careful to quickly proclaim a plausible assumption as a historical fact.

I must also point out the fact that historical occurences are definitely addressed in the odu. The Obakoso legend reflects history, but is wrapped up in a myth that carries more religious than historiographic information. The same is true of the Jesus (Jewesun) legend, or the story about the enslavement of the African people. I'm sure my future studies will unveal more examples.

I have in my hands when I was in Cuba a lot of Patakis,(that is the reason that Orichas which didn't have relationchip in real live have been used in the creation of some Patakis,and also animals,(to create characters,etc.etc.)

I suppose what you want to say here is easier as it reads. But it's too confusing to comment on, I'm sorry.

...As I said Obaluaye IS NOT, a ficticious personality but a real leader which moved out of Ife during the death of Oduduwa,(also several other people which I don't need to mention now),

Any proof? Any evidence at least?

but in the Patakis he has been mixtified with San Lazaro,(Obaluaye was a black/middle age men, when moving out of Ife, ...

Sounds as if you had been there!

... not a white/Oldmen,also the 'Muletas' which are used for San Lazaro,doesn't have anything to do with the Yorubas/culture,(that is a hispanic/thing)....

It is probably well intended to inform me about the demarcation line between the Catholic and the Yoruba elements of Santeria. But my involvement in the religion is long and intensive enough to have covered this subject several times in literature, and in conversations. - You couldn't know.

Regards,

Thomas

[Thomas Altmann]

Arsenio:

Thank you for the link to Ivor Miller's article on Jesús Pérez! I love it.

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

..'Habanera' was a generic name which was used for anything coming out of Cuba...

These discussions concerning Cuban popular music could be so much more productive if everyone had at least a rudimentary understanding of the three main Cuban musical hybrids: rumba, son and danzón. It's surprising to me that in 2006 I've spent as much time as I have arguing in this forum about which musical genre came from which original hybrid.

If anyone doubts what I'm saying here, a quick Google search will corroborate what I say. I don't recommend taking everything on the web at face value, but with so many sources available on-line it's quite easy to cross-reference and of course, it matters who the source is.

Z, I am not aware of your definition of "Habanera". It's certainly not one you will find in books, on-line or with Cuban musicologists. For the record, the historical sequence is: French Contradanza, Danza, Danza Habanera, Danzón. The Danza Habanera inspired many serious composers of the 18th Century and was the inspiration for the Argentine tango as well.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Look it up.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

When katherine Dunhan went to Cuba she was expecting to get Olu/Batas to play with her,but not Olu/Batalero wanted to do it,neither they could get a Bata to take it out of Cuba,(so they fing some Haitian/drums,Djembes,and Congas for the Dancing Ensemble)..If I missed something we could continue the conversation.Dr. Zaragemca

There is a film out that is very well known among percussionists, called "Sworn to the drum" by Les Blank, I think. It is a biography of Francisco Aguabella. Dunham and Aguabella are shown in an interview, talking about how she lured him out of Cuba. Julito Collazo was another drummer who has worked for her. In the film is a short clip of a black-and-white movie from that time (I forgot the title). It shows three batá drummers playing in that movie, one of them being Aguabella.

No further comment.

TA

[zaragenca]

Well brother Thomas I never tryed to tread you as a child,but you did get youself into this situation.becouse we are discussing a chronologic subject in relation to Obaluaye and you are coming with a 'Pataki', in relation to him,and you forced me to clear that...In relation to evidence,there have been a lot of evidences with the Araras in relation to Obaluaye living there with them,but if that isn't enough for you, (I have witnessed,and experienced in Cuba ceremonies where Obaluaye,or Babalu Aye,(as the preference could be),had mounted in the person of an Iyalosha and talked to everybody presented there,(and these is not the only time that this Orichas have presented himself in Cuba)...To David...As I said before there were a lot of musical structures been played around 1776 to early 1800 look why some historic recopilation of Spanish government in Cuba said,"In 1776 from habana the rhythms of Chuchumbe arrived to Veracruz"...."in the 1800's from Cuba is also popular in Mexico, Los Sones,Tonadas,Guarachas,El Sacamando,El Maracumbe,Danzas,etc....They arrived from Cuba to the ports at Veracruz,Porto Bello,Cartagena and Panama,with musicians and Tipical Orquestras"...these are the names for which these music was known in Cuba,but out side of Cuba the collective name was Habaneras.... this was even before the Danzon,...as you could see there is always a detail,but you are always welcome.....Back to Thomas I konw about several movies which have Aguabella featured on it,(but these movies weren't made in the 1950's when Aguabella was playing with Katherine, these movies were made after the Bata drum came to the U.S.A.,..but neither Aguabella,or Collazo were Olu/Batas when they came with Katherine,both of them returned to Cuba and continued the study after that.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158858318

[Thomas Altmann]

Well brother Thomas I never tryed to tread you as a child,but you did get youself into this situation.becouse we are discussing a chronologic subject in relation to Obaluaye and you are coming with a 'Pataki', in relation to him,and you forced me to clear that...

Dr. Zaragemca: I came up with a pataki because I have never seen an appropriate historical account that would support your thesis. I doubt there is any, but I'll keep my eyes open, as long as you cannot supply one. As I said, historians are often left alone with myths and legends when they want to reconstruct African history.

I accept your disagreement, but I'm afraid we can't really discuss that because there is no scientific basis to prove anything. Again, I said that already a messages before. It was just your tone that disturbed me; there must be more sociable way to express this disagreement.

In relation to evidence,there have been a lot of evidences with the Araras in relation to Obaluaye living there with them, ...

- Myths, you mean?

... but if that isn't enough for you, (I have witnessed,and experienced in Cuba ceremonies where Obaluaye,or Babalu Aye,(as the preference could be),had mounted in the person of an Iyalosha and talked to everybody presented there,(and these is not the only time that this Orichas have presented himself in Cuba)...

You seem to believe that an Orisha that manifests itself in possession states must automatically be an elevated Egun, a deified ancestor?
Interesting. I have to think about that. Wait a minute - what about Ochún, for instance?

I konw about several movies which have Aguabella featured on it,(but these movies weren't made in the 1950's when Aguabella was playing with Katherine, these movies were made after the Bata drum came to the U.S.A.,..but neither Aguabella,or Collazo were Olu/Batas when they came with Katherine,both of them returned to Cuba and continued the study after that.

Right, I remember that at least Julito went back to Cuba, but I think that was more for religious/initiation reasons.
As far as I know, you are correct that the batá drum did not come to the USA in the fifties - at least not permanently.
I cannot speak with authority about the excerpt from that film, but as far as I remember, it looked more like from the fifties than anything later. And it had batá. So either the film was made somewhere else, or they played the drums for the scene, packed them up again and took them right back to Cuba. The next time I see the film on video, I'll try to extract more info from it.

Maybe somebody else knows more about that particular passage.

Greetings,

Thomas

[zaragenca]

Again brother Thomas I'm positive about,there is not movies of bataleros in the 1950's,in Cuba,(there are a lot of them more recognized as Olu/Bataleros and there are not movies of them from the 1950's),the only thing which could be is documentary/recorded of one of the many shows which they were making at that time in Cuba and Mexico,as, Batamu, Las Mulatas de Fuego,Sun Sun Babae,etc...If it was a movie about bataleros in Cuba from the 1950's,I would have seen it, or knew it about it...in relation to how the films look loke it,I said before already that I was in California and did work for Universal/Studios for around two years,...there is a way to make movie look like being in the 50's with old/equipment, special scenario and lack of color,etc,(thet doesn't mean that this movie was like that,becouse I haven't seen the one your are talking about it,but the technique is available to do it,(the same for recording).Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158955628

[Berimbau]

Oh Dr. Z - You are so WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But you can still cheer up by buying the movie on E-Bay, there are 479 copies left!!!!:

Title: Mambo
Genre: drama
Runtime: 93 min. --- Year: 1954
Directed By: Robert Rossen

Plot: The tragic story of a poor Venetian girl and her love of the Mambo.

Cast: Silvana Mangano, Michael Rennie, Vittorio Gassman, Shelley Winters, Katherine Dunham, Mary Clare, Eduardo Ciannelli, Julie Robinson, Franco Caruso, Cecilia Maris, Martitia Palmer, Sergio Parlato

Condition: OK: Some lines and scratches in films. Audio has some hiss and clicks. Quality is consistent with films of this era.


Saludos,



Berimbau

[ABAKUA]

Year: 1954

If it was a movie about bataleros in Cuba from the 1950's,I would have seen it, or knew it about it..

:laugh: :p


Id been following this with great interest. Excellent discussion.
I had seen the film some many years ago involving Katherine etc etc could not remember the title or its release year.
From what Ive read, it was made circa 1952 or so, released 1954.

[Berimbau]

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Katherine Dunham .... Dance teacher
Mary Clare .... Contessa Marisoni
Eduardo Ciannelli .... Padre di Giovanna
Julie Robinson .... Marisa
Walter Zappolini
rest of cast listed alphabetically:
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Franco Caruso .... Pio
Mimi Dugini
Giovanna Galletti
Cecilia Maris .... Barbara
Martitia Palmer .... Lena Masetti
Sergio Parlato .... Eduardo
Catherine Zago
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Country: Italy / USA
Language: English
Color: Black and White
Sound Mix: Mono
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User Comments:

2 out of 2 people found the following comment useful:-
Rough but worth roughing it, 27 February 2004
8/10
Author: kinaidos from Seattle, WA

The sound and the editing are rough to the point of being distracting, and the film starts slowly. Those are really the only minuses though. The writing is good, the directing is good for the most part. The actors are well directed at least, and the pacing is good.

There are three real draws to this film: Silvana Mangano's solid performance, a great supporting contribution by Shelley Winters, and a rather intense melodramatic screenplay. Rossen is not credited as a writer, but I find it hard to believe that he didn't have a significant hand in it. Many of the scenes are written in a style quite close to his.

Briefly the story runs as follows, a poor venetian in love with a dead end guy is taken under the wing of a Mambo dance producer (Shelley Winters). She briefly finds fame and then a problematic and complicated marriage with a count (the why of it you will have to find out for yourself). Her marriage is troubled by her relationship with her former lover Mario.

This film has been on my to-watch list ever since seeing a brief snippet of it in Nanni Moretti's "Caro Diario". For the most part I think it was referenced as a dancing film, but if you watch this you'll see there are some subtler ties to (which I can't mention without spoiling the film).

Silvana's closing lines: "Perhaps in my third world, the absorbing world of the Mambo, I could find forgetfulness of the past, and in time peace and happiness."



Saludos,



Berimbau

[OLSONGO]

I think this post has gotten way out of rail, what do the Mambo movies have to do with Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata.
Shouldn't we be a bit more organized and start a post in reference to the Mambo ?

Paz OLSONGO