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Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:35 pm**

Everything is related to the Cinquillo becouse all these musicians were working in the differents cosmetic stages which took place in relation to the Cinquillo...,as we find out long time ago, 'Carpentier',(as other scholars), were wrong in some of their writing,...The Cinquillo as I said, came to Cuba with the spanish/folklor, and the spanish military bands,(which use it in the 'Toque de Diana', which is used to alert the troups for readiness, and later incorporated into the celebrations for special events which were played by military bands,(before any orquestra). and later incorporated into the cuban music.Dr. zaragemca

Posted: **Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am**

zaragenca wrote:Cinquillo as I said, came to Cuba with the spanish/folklor, and the spanish military bands,(which use it in the 'Toque de Diana', which is used to alert the troups for readiness, and later incorporated into the celebrations for special events which were played by military bands,(before any orquestra).

A very interesting theory. What is the source of your information? Can you recommened a recording where I could hear this 'Toque de Diana'?

Even if I become convinced, saying that cinquillo came to Cuba from Spanish music would definitely be an over-simplified explanation. There is no denying that cinquillo is a common bell/stick pattern in various African (especially Bantu) musics found in Cuba and Brazil.

-David

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1204934963

Posted: **Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:01 pm**

So you mean that all the rhythms I have learned from Guinea, Mali, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Ghana, etc, any of those that have a cinquillo part are from Spanish marching bands............. hmm

It's pretty amzing that the Spanish marched around all these countries enough to teach them this valuable pattern. Where would all those Africans be, rhythmically, without the Spaniards?

Posted: **Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:39 pm**

zaragenca wrote:.My stepfather,(and father of my sister),is from Zaragoza,(Spain),so when I was still a child, I went with him to..El Centro Vasco,El Centro Gallego,and El Centro Asturiano, obtaining a good dosification of Spanish folklor,also I went to the Jose Marti/ theatre where I have the opportunity to observe,Zarzuelas,Mazorcas,Musica flamenca,etc…

zaragenca,
I see where you cite the source of your information. There's a good chance that the Spanish got cinquillo from African music, possibly via Morrocco. As goingquinto alludes, the evidence overwhelmingly points to cinquillo being of African origin.
-David

Posted: **Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:54 pm**

David,you are already beatting on a dead horse,I have say one more time, that it is not the question of how the Cinquillo got into the European/music, that is irrelavant,,,,, in this posting,...the issue is how it got into the cuban music and it was in the spanish folklor..before the bantues came to Cuba and also the Carabalies,(which I said came and settle in Cuba before the Bantues)....'The Toque de Diana,' is related to the military bands,( which is a call for attention or readiness).ana as I said that predate the Orquestas Tipicas....Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:04 am**

zaragenca wrote:it is not the question of how the Cinquillo got into the European/music, that is irrelavant,,,,,.the issue is how it got into the cuban music and it was in the spanish folklor..before the bantues came to Cuba and also the Carabalies,(which I said came and settle in Cuba before the Bantues)....'The Toque de Diana,' is related to the military bands,

That's an intersting theory, though I can't say I'm convinced. The first African slaves arrived in Cuba in 1521, which also predates the Orquestas Tipicas.

The largest African ethnic group brought to Cuba was the Bantus, but cinquillo is found in the music of other linguistic groups too, basically most of those groups who were brought to Cuba as slaves. Every account I've read attributes cinquillo to Cuba's African influence. It's a much more important rhythmic motif in west/central Africa than it is in Spain.

Still, if you could cite a recording of this "Toque de Diana" that I could access, I would be much obliged.
-David

Posted: **Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:26 pm**

David,the first slaves arriving to Cuba were not the Bantus,(even if later they were the mayority),..but anyway the spanish floklor came already wit the Cinquillo into their music,(both liturgical,and popular at that time)....so even for the credit of having interaction with the cuban music the Arara and Carabalies and Mandingas were first and even settle their cabildos first.. Bantus were after them...(it is just a recicling of the wrong information,(as it happenned many times before)...'The Toque de Diana' is a famouse military articulation go to military spanish people(I got that in Cuba in great amount)..Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:13 pm**

I have just been online for the last hour searching for recordings of the toque de diana. It is a reveille call. In all the recordings I've found, there is no cinquillo. I only found about 6, but I repeat, NONE of them contained anything even close to cinquillo. All the recordings I found were the same song, just different versions.

Dr. Z, if you know of any recordings that we could check out, I would definitely go and listen to them. At this point I am a little confused how this toque de diana brought cinquillo to cuba. I really don't think another encyclopedic entry will clear this up, I just would like to hear some recordings, or see notation, etc.

Posted: **Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:03 pm**

I would love to hear this "toque de diana", but it still does not prove anything. And by the way, Bantus are not the only African ethinc group to play cinquillo. It is found throughout sub-Saharan Africa.
-David

Posted: **Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:14 pm**

http://www.ejercito.mil.uy/musica/musica.htm. Toque de Diana, an I only was there 5 minutes on the internet...Dr. zaragemca

Posted: **Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:08 pm**

Thanks for sharing that link, but there's no cinquillo in that "Toque de Diana". Just in case there's some confusion s to what we are talking about. Here's cinquillo:
X-XX-XX-

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1205881827

Posted: **Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:33 am**

Dittto on davidpenalosa

Posted: **Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:37 pm**

Today, while compiling a discography for my upcoming book "The Clave Matrix", I rediscovered a field recording of gutiar and mandolin from Mozambique, East Africa in the 1950's. The rhythmic pattern of the guitar is cinquillo. If someone in this forum can make this available for listening for the group, I'd be happy to email them the mp3 file.
-David

Posted: **Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:33 pm**

I went and listened to your clip, Dr. Z, and it is the same song that I found. As I said in a previous post, I had no trouble finding recordings of Toque de Diana, I just don't hear cinquillo (or even a simple tresillo for that matter) in any of the versions I've found. Again, a different version, but the same song. What is your definition of "cinquillo", if you think that this recording is an example of it?

Posted: **Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:36 pm**

I could just as well say that the Aboriginal people in Australia brought rumba clave to Cuba, and then offer up a recording of didjeridoo not playing the clave as an example. ???