Time change within a song - going from 4/4 to 6/8 and back

[Jongo]

Hey guys, when I am on timbales and me and my buddies are playing we go from 4/4 to 6/8 on one section and I usually kick that off with a quick roll and a rim shot, now when we are going back to 4/4 I just go from the 6/8 afro-cuban bell and rumba clave in 6 to the cascara and rumba clave with no rim shot. We know how many bars we are playing so we have it timed out but should I play something to signify the change or can we just go back to 4?
Juan

[JohnnyConga]

Well yu can go right into the four, or devise a "break-cierre" to go back to the 4 section or do a "pick up roll" into the 4. Does that Help?....."JC" Johnny Conga.... :;):

[Jongo]

Hey Johnny Conga that does help. I had been going straight back into the four and that was working so I think I will stick with that. I had tried making that transition with a roll but I think for what we are playing it sounds better to go straight into it. I am still a novice so sometimes I need reassurance that what I am doing is OK. Thanks JohnnyConga! I had another question in this forum about Los Conguitos by Mongo Santamaria it has a palito part that I can play by ear but I don't really understand it. If you could shed some light on that for me I would really appreciate it. Gracias Maestro
Juan

[JohnnyConga]

Los Conguitos????? by Mongo?...what album is that on??? "JC" Johnny Conga....

[Jongo]

Hey Johnny Conga, Los Conguitos is on a CD called Afro-Roots. I think it is two albums that they took and put together on one CD. I will have to take a look at the CD case and see what the original album name was.
Juan

[Raymond]

Jongo,

My understanding is that the most important thing about any transition between "rhythms" in the arrangement, it could be from 4/4 to 6/8 or any other type of change, is to be in clave.

Any preparation, like rimshots or any hits, have to consider that. If you do it right, regardless of what you do, it will sound right! (Don't over do it is my recommendation. The most common and simple preparation to denote a change in the dynamic of the arrangement will be to hit the macho in the "and" of 3 and the hembra in 4, ala Willie Rosario...).

Saludos!

[Jongo]

Hey Raymond, I been working on staying in clave. That is the most important thing. It is coming more naturally to me the more that I play. Last night we were playing and I was soloing in rumba clave and it was very steady, you could still hear the clave within the solo.

To mark the change from 4 to 6 I have been trying to keep it simple and play a quick roll and rim shot on 4 then go into 6 on the 1. I am going to take your advice and try the macho on 3 and hembra on 4.

[zaragemca]

The long tradition of switching from one time signature to another is been part of the afrocuban music and later latin-jazz,all of the above methods could be used,and depending on the level of sophistiation of the musicians and practice, you could make a bridge with a roll of 1/4, 2/4,3/4, or 4/4 of a bar in a 4/4 time signature,also go strait to 6/8,or 4/4 at the end of the each Bar, some bands set in a 'musical bridge' before the change,to add exciment in the song (where everybody would play the musical phrase at the same time).This is extensivebly used by Dizzy Guillespie's, Irakere,Francisco Aguabella,Paquito D' Rivera,Arturo Sandoval,etc.,one of the pioneer of this type of arrengement in the U.S. was 'Chico' O'farrill.In Cuba Obdulio Morales,Gilberto Valdez and Bebo Valdez have been working on it since 1938.



Edited By zaragemca on 1100198525

[Raymond]

Jongo,

Consider the "tempo" you are playing in. For me any change to 6/8 is to be aware of that first quarter note in the first bar of the 6/8. (You will feel like things slow down a little bit. Is like the hit of the bata right in that first note of the first bar of 6/8). Another thing, although is sort of overdoing it and depends on the dynamic of the arrangement, is to hit the cymbal on the 4 of that last bar of the 4/4. It sorts of "prepares" for that change of swing when you transition to 6/8. An abanico or any type of roll, which you must do in the 4 or the and of the 4, feels strange unless the 4/4 is slow in tempo and the 6/8 is fast in tempo. Like I mentioned before any preparation will depend on the dynamic and tempo of the arrangement).

The thing that gets people the most at 6/8 is the bell playing and accomodating yourself into it. There are various types of bell playing in 6/8. As long as you accomodate yourself to the right beat, which is the most difficult thing to do in bell playing in 6/8, you will be OK!.

Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1100270277

[zaragemca]

Greeting, you are right in your comment Raymond,I just would like to add that some times the arrengement would require the accent of the Cymbal in the last 4 of the bar,( 4/4 time signature), but also the accentuation could be in the first quarter,(right with the starting of the change),specially when preceded by a musical phrase 'as bridge'.(It is used a lot in cuban bands).



Edited By zaragemca on 1100280183

[Jongo]

Unfortunately on my timbales I don't have a cymbal, just bells and a block. So I can't play the cymbal to accent the 4 of the last bar but I that's good to know. So I have been taking Raymond's advice and macho on the and of 3 and Hembra on 4 being very careful to take the tempo into account. When we go into the 6/8 section we raise the dynamics of the piece. We kick it and let it the energy grow and flow and then we harness it and bring it back into 4/4 time. That's how it is supposed to go, we are all a bunch of amateurs having fun so it doesn't always work according to plan. That brings me to a problem, how do you tell somebody that just does not get it that they can't play on a piece? I am not a teacher so I can't really help them that much. What do I say? Any advice?

[Raymond]

Jongo,

Glad things have worked out! Actually, any "preparation" for change in tempo, as long as you do them "on time", you should not have any problem. However, some people will dare to tell you that some of the "preparations" are more appropiate in certain circumstances and/or part of the arrangement than in others.... (Example: an abanico or rim shot should always work but some people don't like it when you are going to cascara. Supposedly, the rule is that abanicos are to go to a tempo that is more "up beat", etc, etc.). I am a believer that sometimes that is correct and sometimes is not. It depends on the "chemistry" of the group, the arrangement, and how your "leader" thinks things should be....

Anyway, the concern about telling somebody that is doing something wrong and trying to do it without hurting their ego and/or thinking you that you believe you know it all, is hard but very hard sometimes....It depends in the individual and his "receptivenes" to critiscm.

Of course, helps knowing your "five cents" and explaining what you mean and been able to demonstrate it if possible. (It helps somebody else agreeing with you). This is art, and and art is a very personal matter that involves expression and that is the reason "artists" tend to not like critiscm that much.

You are not saying what your problem is specifically but most problems found with somebody who can't play in a latin music ensemble are the following. (Hopefully, I am not missing).

1 - Lack of clave or problems with tempo that results in problems with the clave

Believe it or not there are people who can't play in clave or have problems keeping up with the tempo, either going ftoo ast or going too slow...THIS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM...

2 - Lack of sense of playing in "ensemble" or what we call in Spanish "Lack of Afinque".

Some people have a problem playing without having a continous solo or constantly improvising or for timbaleros, doing lots of "punches" with the cymbals or lots of "preparations"....

3 - Lack of strength in their playing

This is what we call "calle" or street in Spanish. In other words, some people do not have the strength to play strong and to keep it up. Is hard to explain but is felt when you listen to somebody playing. A rhythm section needs to carry a steady and powerful beat to keep up. Beginners tend sometimes not to have it or be able carry it for long period....This is even with microphones....

4 - Some people just can't play in a group or not trained to play in ensemble.

I know some guys who can give you the most outstanding solos or carry a "rumba" beat but just cannot play an salsa or merengue or anything with a bass or piano or in a group. Also, some people cannot remember the breaks or stops and despite practice they cannot get what they are supposed to do. (These people tend to be lacking techniques or discipline in paying attention or been concentrated in what are they doing, like the three above mentioned problems sometimes, and in most cases is just a matter of practice for them to get it). These people have the basics of the instruments, sometimes been very good at it, but beyond that to play in a group, they cannot play with others...

Going back, tell you person nicely and explain nicely. Sometimes, an "I am sorry, and with all due respect guy, but this is wrong or I am feeling this wrong....." Also, sometimes trying to bring somebody into your comment, who hopefully will be nice, will help...."...hey, Joe, do you feel the same as I do...??? Demonstrating how is done right will help the person understand.....

A thorough answer, I hope this helps...Lots of psychology here......Others will bring their comments too!

Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1115673850

[franc]

guys,
in what clave pattern are we talking about, or does it matter??? franc .saludos!!! :blush:

[Raymond]

Franc,

If you are referring to a "transfer" to 6/8 from a 4/4 or C, the way that it starts is in clave 3/2 "straight" or clave rumba, that for some people feels more comfortable.

Saludos!

[shor]

Why a signal at 4 and not in all the bar?