Rudiments for timbales - Rudiments practice,Application in fills
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by pini » Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:04 pm
Hi all ,
I began taking seriously practicing the rudiments to strengthen my hands , (especially the left weak one).
In VicFirth's site I found 40 rudiments for the snare drum :
VicFirth Rudiments
Are all this rudiments apply for timbales also , or that the stracture of the timbale , different from the snare drum , makes some rudiments just not worth trying on the timbale ?
A little comment :
{I saw someone who played the timbales but came from a set-drum background.He sure put an impressive show with very fast and hard hitting movement and the crowd loves it , but as a matter of fact he hit the timable , cowbell and cymbal as if they were drum kit and conseqently the sound was not clean at all. For someone with a bit understanding you could right away notice the differance from timbale player that came from percussion background .He also performed and his sounds came clean , more exact and pleasant for the ear.}
I understand and correct me if I'm wrong , that the movements come from the wrists and the fingers.
What should be more dominant and how it affect the playing ?
Wrist movements or finger movements ? Do you transfer while playing , for example a fill , between the two holding methods ?
Are the rudiments classified for each of this stick holding methods or match both of them ...
Another question I've got is which rudiments or combination of them are used in common fills ?
best regards ,
Pini
I began taking seriously practicing the rudiments to strengthen my hands , (especially the left weak one).
In VicFirth's site I found 40 rudiments for the snare drum :
VicFirth Rudiments
Are all this rudiments apply for timbales also , or that the stracture of the timbale , different from the snare drum , makes some rudiments just not worth trying on the timbale ?
A little comment :
{I saw someone who played the timbales but came from a set-drum background.He sure put an impressive show with very fast and hard hitting movement and the crowd loves it , but as a matter of fact he hit the timable , cowbell and cymbal as if they were drum kit and conseqently the sound was not clean at all. For someone with a bit understanding you could right away notice the differance from timbale player that came from percussion background .He also performed and his sounds came clean , more exact and pleasant for the ear.}
I understand and correct me if I'm wrong , that the movements come from the wrists and the fingers.
What should be more dominant and how it affect the playing ?
Wrist movements or finger movements ? Do you transfer while playing , for example a fill , between the two holding methods ?
Are the rudiments classified for each of this stick holding methods or match both of them ...
Another question I've got is which rudiments or combination of them are used in common fills ?
best regards ,
Pini
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by 120decibels » Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:18 pm
Pini,
The timbale evolved when the French brought Timpani to Latin America. Consequently, traditional timbale technique is very similar to timpani technique.
Obviously, there has been a lot of rhythmic adaptation. Any experienced Timpani player will tell you that you'd never play a double stroke roll on the timpani. However, some of the most traditional licks on the timbale employ double strokes (like the abanico).
I guess my point here is, to get a full, clean sound out of the timbale, you have to use some timpani-like technique. Instead of playing with a lot of wrist with your hands flat (palms down), rotate your hands so that your thumbs are almost facing the sky. It's a very different feel and a very different wrist/finger motion. It's very difficult to explain in a typed message. Traditional drumset technique, with palms down, tends to muffle the drum because the sticks don't come off of the drum as fast. It's subtle, but you can hear the difference in tone.
On the subject of rudiments, all of them can be used on the timbales. Roughs, rolls, flams, ratamacues...they all work. They are all good for filling space. I use them for punctuation: to close or open a phrase or section of a tune.
Good luck.
Zach
The timbale evolved when the French brought Timpani to Latin America. Consequently, traditional timbale technique is very similar to timpani technique.
Obviously, there has been a lot of rhythmic adaptation. Any experienced Timpani player will tell you that you'd never play a double stroke roll on the timpani. However, some of the most traditional licks on the timbale employ double strokes (like the abanico).
I guess my point here is, to get a full, clean sound out of the timbale, you have to use some timpani-like technique. Instead of playing with a lot of wrist with your hands flat (palms down), rotate your hands so that your thumbs are almost facing the sky. It's a very different feel and a very different wrist/finger motion. It's very difficult to explain in a typed message. Traditional drumset technique, with palms down, tends to muffle the drum because the sticks don't come off of the drum as fast. It's subtle, but you can hear the difference in tone.
On the subject of rudiments, all of them can be used on the timbales. Roughs, rolls, flams, ratamacues...they all work. They are all good for filling space. I use them for punctuation: to close or open a phrase or section of a tune.
Good luck.
Zach
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by Raymond » Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:52 pm
Timbales are a latin instrument. Therefore, although drummers might have the techniques to deal with the instrument, what some lack is the "feel" that includes the sense of clave. That feel is what frustrates some drummers when trying to playing "latin.". Not all can get it. If you do not have that feel, the sound is "messy" and mechanic. Sense of clave or trying to find it avoids the "messy" sound you are talking about. (For example, what most timbaleros do to do "demonstrations" of timbale playing to emulate actual latin rythms such as songo, mozambique, etc, etc. They could be sort of "soloing" but the groove they are doing has to be a "latin one". That's what drummers like Horacio Hernandez do to sound natural).
In regards to playing timbales, you could use your drummer chops but that "feel" has to be there or playing with a latin feel has to be there..
I agree that for playing timbales, the latin way, you use a lot of fingers and wrist. The method I have been taught, and I have seen other latin timbale players, is to have a grip that involves your index and thumb in your stick and is actually sideways sort of more facing down than up. Most rudiments, such as "abanicos", and cascara/bell playing is mainly with your wrist/hands. The full swing of your hand is used when you want volume and is normally used for fills and solos. (At least this is what I have seen and what I do. 120 decibels brings another approach but the technique I have learned to get volume is you use your more your elbows and shoulders or in other words, your full arm).
Timbale playing, the latin way, involves a lots of triplets and syncopated patterns that are not easy at the beginning by the ones that have not been exposed. Also, clave, clave, clave. You could adapt the timbales to "non clave" rhythms but somehow the traditional syncopated beats have to be there or found a comfortable groove that in some sense is seeking for a "zone or area" in the rhythm that emulates what we have in latin music which is the clave. Good example are what the guys at Santana do. They seek a sense of clave or comfortable "tumbao" in the songs and play along with it and makes them sound natural making them sound "latin".
My two cents!
Edited By Raymond on April 25 2003 at 15:54
In regards to playing timbales, you could use your drummer chops but that "feel" has to be there or playing with a latin feel has to be there..
I agree that for playing timbales, the latin way, you use a lot of fingers and wrist. The method I have been taught, and I have seen other latin timbale players, is to have a grip that involves your index and thumb in your stick and is actually sideways sort of more facing down than up. Most rudiments, such as "abanicos", and cascara/bell playing is mainly with your wrist/hands. The full swing of your hand is used when you want volume and is normally used for fills and solos. (At least this is what I have seen and what I do. 120 decibels brings another approach but the technique I have learned to get volume is you use your more your elbows and shoulders or in other words, your full arm).
Timbale playing, the latin way, involves a lots of triplets and syncopated patterns that are not easy at the beginning by the ones that have not been exposed. Also, clave, clave, clave. You could adapt the timbales to "non clave" rhythms but somehow the traditional syncopated beats have to be there or found a comfortable groove that in some sense is seeking for a "zone or area" in the rhythm that emulates what we have in latin music which is the clave. Good example are what the guys at Santana do. They seek a sense of clave or comfortable "tumbao" in the songs and play along with it and makes them sound natural making them sound "latin".
My two cents!
Edited By Raymond on April 25 2003 at 15:54
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by pini » Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:20 pm
Thanks for those thoughts.
Regarding the guy who played the timbales ,,, he was in the groove and feels VERY good the clave. The point i wanted to make is that the way he hit the timbale. the strikes are very hard aimed to the center of the drums and yes , the way he held the sticks is thumb almost up ,and stick very flat oriented (horizontal) , but he used a lot of force , maybe in order to stay at the pace of his intensive solo.
As for the other guy he holds the sticks more palm down , but still uses a lot of wrist and also his abanico's are comming with wrist movement. When i do the abanico i turn to holding the sticks with almost only the thumb and fore finger (palm down) with the help of slight touch of other finger ar palm to maintain stability. The problem is that the abanico strokes does not come distinct enough and i am limmited to the mid-slow tempo.
Thanks again.
Pini.
Regarding the guy who played the timbales ,,, he was in the groove and feels VERY good the clave. The point i wanted to make is that the way he hit the timbale. the strikes are very hard aimed to the center of the drums and yes , the way he held the sticks is thumb almost up ,and stick very flat oriented (horizontal) , but he used a lot of force , maybe in order to stay at the pace of his intensive solo.
As for the other guy he holds the sticks more palm down , but still uses a lot of wrist and also his abanico's are comming with wrist movement. When i do the abanico i turn to holding the sticks with almost only the thumb and fore finger (palm down) with the help of slight touch of other finger ar palm to maintain stability. The problem is that the abanico strokes does not come distinct enough and i am limmited to the mid-slow tempo.
Thanks again.
Pini.
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by Raymond » Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:37 pm
In regards to abanicos, if you cannot do it the "rudimental way" (that is mommy daddys of 5 of 7) then try to "drag it" allowing the bouncing to help you out. Dragging brings the problems of control it, how long the abanico is going to be.
Doing the mommy-daddys is not easy because there is a tendency to hit to hard and for those who do not dominate "the bouncing" with the head will not sound right. (Personally, I am still working on the rudimental way....).
The Marc Quinones and the Tito de Gracia's do it so "flawlesly' without sounding to hard and is becasue they dominate "the bouncing" and they "slightly hit" the head making it sound like is suppose to like a fan (abanico) opening up. Their speed is another plus.....
The problem with the dragging is that you will not have that great of control if you need to extend the abanico. Try the "dragging" but continue trying to control it with both of your hands. Eventually you will get it. Don't give up on the rudimental part because you must strive to do it that way. Practice everywhere special hard surfaces for length and speed so your hands get use to it.
Another method is having the sticks boucing with your palms, with the palms helping you out to do the abanico (This takes some "mastering" just like the rudiments). To make it sound like an abanico you have to dominate the bounce which envolves your fingers (which is your grip) and the palms of your hands).
Personally, I am a big fan of abanicos. I am still doing "some dragging" and fingers/palms bouncing with rudimental way once in a while. Little by little incorporating the rudimental way until my speed and confidence that my hands will not give up on me becomes natural.
Doing the mommy-daddys is not easy because there is a tendency to hit to hard and for those who do not dominate "the bouncing" with the head will not sound right. (Personally, I am still working on the rudimental way....).
The Marc Quinones and the Tito de Gracia's do it so "flawlesly' without sounding to hard and is becasue they dominate "the bouncing" and they "slightly hit" the head making it sound like is suppose to like a fan (abanico) opening up. Their speed is another plus.....
The problem with the dragging is that you will not have that great of control if you need to extend the abanico. Try the "dragging" but continue trying to control it with both of your hands. Eventually you will get it. Don't give up on the rudimental part because you must strive to do it that way. Practice everywhere special hard surfaces for length and speed so your hands get use to it.
Another method is having the sticks boucing with your palms, with the palms helping you out to do the abanico (This takes some "mastering" just like the rudiments). To make it sound like an abanico you have to dominate the bounce which envolves your fingers (which is your grip) and the palms of your hands).
Personally, I am a big fan of abanicos. I am still doing "some dragging" and fingers/palms bouncing with rudimental way once in a while. Little by little incorporating the rudimental way until my speed and confidence that my hands will not give up on me becomes natural.
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by Simon B » Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:53 pm
Pini the grip 120 outlined is a great grip - you can ultimately get more control by utilising the fingers in that way. For example on double-strokes if you're good enough you move the thumb and kind of dip the stick for the second stroke so that it hits with exactly the same weight and is totally clean, unlike the buzz. And you can still use the elbow and the wrist for accents (i.e. the elbow comes out somewhat wrist raises stick (palm not turned over though), and crack the accent when the elbow is back in closer.
BUT - It's a #### sight harder to get good at this grip than with the palms totally down (anyone - am I right in thinking some people call this the German method), or the 'American' compromise method - essentially in between the two. I know this because I used to play drum-set and feel good in the palms down grip, but my teacher - a jazz drummer with lovely technique - really wanted me to develop the French grip. I practised for hours, days, months, even years, and I was still not great. Then I found the conga drum and found that the palms down grip that I felt natural with was the only way to go!
Most top-level timbaleros I see use the 'American' grip, getting the fingers in with their playing, sometimes the French - Changuito is an example. I am beginning to move towards this.
In terms of rudiments - endless single-stroke rolls with accents, at the beginning, end, in the middle, etc. That's where you start. Also try and do a roll for five minutes and hold it steady - every day!
Accents on the timbales don't usually come from the middle of the drum as far as I know - he certainly sounds like a kit drummer - more the top quarter of the stick - not ruling these out for a change of effect though.
Simon B
BUT - It's a #### sight harder to get good at this grip than with the palms totally down (anyone - am I right in thinking some people call this the German method), or the 'American' compromise method - essentially in between the two. I know this because I used to play drum-set and feel good in the palms down grip, but my teacher - a jazz drummer with lovely technique - really wanted me to develop the French grip. I practised for hours, days, months, even years, and I was still not great. Then I found the conga drum and found that the palms down grip that I felt natural with was the only way to go!
Most top-level timbaleros I see use the 'American' grip, getting the fingers in with their playing, sometimes the French - Changuito is an example. I am beginning to move towards this.
In terms of rudiments - endless single-stroke rolls with accents, at the beginning, end, in the middle, etc. That's where you start. Also try and do a roll for five minutes and hold it steady - every day!
Accents on the timbales don't usually come from the middle of the drum as far as I know - he certainly sounds like a kit drummer - more the top quarter of the stick - not ruling these out for a change of effect though.
Simon B
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by qualitydag » Sat May 10, 2003 11:27 pm
I'd like to invite anyone who is interested to see a very short clip I did to show how one can articulate on timbalitos with feeling.
It has always been a truth for me that it's not how much one says but how one says it. The short clip I did represents a more subdued style of playing timbalitos. Actually I'm playing licks that are more of a timbale style. I will put up other clips that show different feels.
http://afrocubanchops.com/timbal.html
Clifford
It has always been a truth for me that it's not how much one says but how one says it. The short clip I did represents a more subdued style of playing timbalitos. Actually I'm playing licks that are more of a timbale style. I will put up other clips that show different feels.
http://afrocubanchops.com/timbal.html
Clifford
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by JohnnyConga » Sun May 11, 2003 5:18 pm
THE GRIP IS CALLED THE "MATCH GRIP" for holding the timbale sticks. The edge(rim) of the timbale is also struck for that highpitched sound and into the center for another sound. Willie Bobo had a great way of playing from the center to the edge and back creating al kinds of tones from the timbale ,even playing in cirlces around the head of the timbale. Listen to him on "Cuban Fantasy" with Cal Tjader. You will hear what I mean.....At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA.... 
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by tamboricua » Mon May 12, 2003 3:31 pm
One name that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, is the late Guillermo Barreto. Famous for his collaboration on the Cachao's Descargas. Mr. Barreto was the one who started all this rudimental approach to the timbales.
Saludos,
Jorge Ginorio
Saludos,
Jorge Ginorio
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by RitmoBoricua » Mon May 12, 2003 4:06 pm
Hi. Mr. Guillermos Barretto played the drum kit too if I am not mistaken. What abbout Walfredo De Los Reyes he probably was into implementing the rudiments to the pailas too. 
Edited By RitmoBoricua on May 12 2003 at 17:07
Edited By RitmoBoricua on May 12 2003 at 17:07
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by zaragemca » Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:19 pm
I have found that the brothers above are very knowlegable in the subject,just to add that the abanico could be performed with double rolls,or single rolls,the main feature in this instrument is calculation of the angle to hit the rim,the accurate hitting of the bells and blocks,the coordination of the fill ins and abanicos,the coordination of the percussion structure with the rest of percussionists playing in the Band.The domination of...in time,off time,syncopation,contra syncopation,combine time signature,etc., is a must.
Edited By zaragemca on Nov. 21 2003 at 15:27
Edited By zaragemca on Nov. 21 2003 at 15:27
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by Raymond » Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:07 pm
The most common and accepted way to do abanicos is the "mommy daddy". (5,6, 7 and even 9s in mommy daddys). However, they are people who have become distinct of their abanicos in single rolls. Endel Dueno, a famous Puertorrican timbalero, is an example of the singe roll style. Some people do it in single rolls doing triplets.
Tito Puente said that the abanico is a "signature" of a timbalero. Therefore, every timbalero must seek "theirs." If you are uncue and you feel comfortable that's all you should care about.
Tito Puente said that the abanico is a "signature" of a timbalero. Therefore, every timbalero must seek "theirs." If you are uncue and you feel comfortable that's all you should care about.
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by zaragemca » Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:14 pm
I could see that I agree in that point,even when there is a general structure for playing this instrument,it is also very personal for the differents approaches which could be used when getting in to solos.
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by Simon B » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:54 am
In regards to abanicos, if you cannot do it the "rudimental way" (that is mommy daddys of 5 of 7) then try to "drag it" allowing the bouncing to help you out. Dragging brings the problems of control it, how long the abanico is going to be.
Doing the mommy-daddys is not easy because there is a tendency to hit to hard and for those who do not dominate "the bouncing" with the head will not sound right. (Personally, I am still working on the rudimental way....).
I'm quoting an old post here, but here goes...
Raymond when you say the rudimental way could you describe
what this is and how it relates to the kind of grip you've mentioned? Is it as simple as dropping each stick only for as long as two bounces each side or is there some other movement to control the bounce? (The way I was taught on drum-set - and could never do properly - was to control the bounce rather like the way I have been taught on congas, through dropping the hand and clipping the second stroke as the hand is raised.
Thanks
Simon
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by Raymond » Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:04 pm
Simon,
Actually what I do, is an actual mommy-daddy but is not controlled by my wrists. It is bounce with the sticks that are a mommy daddys that I stop or roll around the head to either get the "sharp" hit in the rim or to make it sound "ala" Marc Quinones around the middle of the rim. In other words is a roll of the sticks that I have "mastered". I sort of throw the sticks to the heads. (Hard to explain)!
Seen people trying to immitate me but they do not get it. My problem with the correct mommy-daddy is that so far I have not mastered the sound I like and is all in working with the bounce. Sounds very loud and sharp. That I do not like.
Outside of the timbales' macho drum I could "mommy-daddys" great. It is the same principle as taught to drummer. What you need regarding the mommy-daddys is work with the "time" between you want to finish. Normally, the "abanico" is done in the and of the four to finish in one. (Some people extend it more and is now used to "cover" some silence bars). If you want a 5 or 7 or even a 9 is up to you and your skills. It all sounds different dependin on the drummer, the stick, the tempo of the song and the head.
Regarding my way, I do not know if it is a 5 or 7. One of them' I've been told sounds like a 9.
Saludos!
Actually what I do, is an actual mommy-daddy but is not controlled by my wrists. It is bounce with the sticks that are a mommy daddys that I stop or roll around the head to either get the "sharp" hit in the rim or to make it sound "ala" Marc Quinones around the middle of the rim. In other words is a roll of the sticks that I have "mastered". I sort of throw the sticks to the heads. (Hard to explain)!
Seen people trying to immitate me but they do not get it. My problem with the correct mommy-daddy is that so far I have not mastered the sound I like and is all in working with the bounce. Sounds very loud and sharp. That I do not like.
Outside of the timbales' macho drum I could "mommy-daddys" great. It is the same principle as taught to drummer. What you need regarding the mommy-daddys is work with the "time" between you want to finish. Normally, the "abanico" is done in the and of the four to finish in one. (Some people extend it more and is now used to "cover" some silence bars). If you want a 5 or 7 or even a 9 is up to you and your skills. It all sounds different dependin on the drummer, the stick, the tempo of the song and the head.
Regarding my way, I do not know if it is a 5 or 7. One of them' I've been told sounds like a 9.
Saludos!
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