Rudiments for timbales - Rudiments practice,Application in fills

[JohnnyConga]

I'm gonna say the 60's....???...."JC" Johnny Conga.... ???

[JohnnyConga]

Yes it was a great experience learning how to play in NYC. There really wasn't any formal type schools that taught Latin music xcept for Johnny Colons school and now Boys Harbor. Charlie Palmieri did teach a Latin music class at New York University,in the 70's, which I attended and got to perform and play with Charlie. Also lots of guys helped and shared with each other when it came to learning music,and we also had the normal "legit" kind of music in public and junior high schools. Now I am the teacher and passing on "the tradition" as it was taught to me. I am! the "Conga Griot", now...... "JC" Johnny Conga.....

[Simon B]

Fascinating posts as always. I'm going to check availibility of Manny Oquendo material in just a few seconds. Raymond, what albums do you recommend with Marc Quinones, Chino Nunez or Tito de Gracia on timbales?

Thanks

Simon

[JohnnyConga]

Oscar Cartaya's new one "my music my time my friends"....."JC" Johnny Conga.... :;):

[Raymond]

Simon,

My recommended albums:

Marc Quinones:

a- Willie Colon "Color Americano"
b- DLG "Dark Latin Groove" (Their first one).
c- Tito Nieves "Dejenme Vivir"
d- Tito Nieves "Asi Mismo Fue"
e - Celia Cruz "La Negra Tiene Tumbao"
f- Nora "Electric Lady"

Tito de Gracia

a- Jerry Rivera "Cuenta Conmigo"
b - Michael Stuart - Michael Stuart
c- Truko y Zaperoko - Musica Universal (latest one).
d- Johnny Rivera "Encuentro Casual"
e- Various Artists "Arjona en Salsa"
f- Tito's own latin jazz album with his own band, Naoka Jam, "My Latin Roots" (Highly recommended).

Want to kill "two birds" with one stone....get Jerry Rivera's "Fresco"...half of the album produced in Puerto Rico, Tito de Gracia recorded the timbales, the other half recorded in New York, Marc Quinones is in timbales....Notice the difference in "recording styles."


Chino Nunez

a- Marc Anthony's "Otra Nota"
b-Jose Alberto "El Canario" "Llego la hora"
c- Jose Alberto "El Canario" Homenaje a Machito
d- Spanish Harlem Orchestra (Both albums)
e - Isaac Delgado "Otra Nota"

These are some albums..so many from them but these are good start....Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1114269363

[ralph]

You may want to check out a few recording by these timbaleros as well:

Charlie Santiago- Orquesta Broadway, La Tapa
Mike Collazo- Tito Rodriguez, Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz
Ralph Irizarry- Seis de Solar etc...
Lil Ray Romero- Ray Barretto

fine timbaleros in their own right.

[pini]

The rudimental way is to use the fingers to bring the sticks up and down, on double (or single) strokes, isn't it, so that the wrists don't really move? Am I right in saying that just as with doubles, when you do your single strokes, your hands are roughly 45 degrees and the movement is from the fingers more than anything else?

Simon

The rudimental way is to use the fingers to bring the sticks up and down, on double (or single) strokes, isn't it, so that the wrists don't really move? Am I right in saying that just as with doubles, when you do your single strokes, your hands are roughly 45 degrees and the movement is from the fingers more than anything else?

Simon

hi Guys,

As a self taught , all i do always is analyze the parameters infuluencing the hit type of the stick on the drum. i can say now that since i first started this post my double strokes are just great but im still waiting to my left hand to come along and join my right hand , since i for about 5-6 years only played and practiced the right hand it is very strong and fast.

yet , my double strokes now are very powerfull cause my thecnuque is alot on the fingers. i control the stick and hit the stick using my thumb and fore finger ( i can play while gripping the sticj only with the fingers ) so together with a flexible wrist and fast one , if one can dominate both ways u can reach very high results.

[Firebrand]

I second everything that has been said on this thread, though I do want to add my two cents about solo technique, coming from drumset applications.

I've gotten my share of "yeah, but you don't sound Latin" comments, and it's not because I can't. I'm a Puerto Rican musician with over 20 years of timbale, conga, bongo, and drums experience. Personally, I get tired of the "same old, same old" old school breaks and signature pyrotechnics. Whenever I jam with other Latin musicians, for the most part, they are untrained, know very little rudiments (and if they do, it's by pure chance, not education on the matter) and they all play the timbales the same way. Lots of flair and antics...same breaks used on every salsa CD imaginable, etc.

I'm not against old school. Using old school breaks is great if you're trying to give a particular song that "authentic" sound. I'm making the claim, however, that if you want to edge out of that pack, you have to know rudiments. Tito De Gracia, Endel Dueno, Edwin Clemente, Ralph Irizarry...all of them have one thing in common: standard snare-drum rudiments. It is what allows them to A) speed up and clean their technique, B) have more hand independence, to do complicated rhythms, and C) enhance their solos beyond the tired old salsa tricks.

Listen to a lot of Latin music to get the standard timbale licks. you'll need them when "proving" yourself to other musicians of the genre. But, where you'll leave the salsa school behind is when you start doing things that they can't, because you have rudiments.

And even then, you'll still get the criticism. I can't tell you how many times i've heard the complaint that my timbale soloing sounds like I'm playing a snare drum. It makes me cringe. I do it on purpose...I don't want to do the same old, salsa solo patterns...and sadly, I play mostly with 40-60 year old players who want players to play it "the old way" all the time. Adding a bass drum or a snare on the side is already heresy for them.

Develop both things: the old school feel with the new school rudiments.

[Firebrand]

I second everything that has been said on this thread, though I do want to add my two cents about solo technique, coming from drumset applications.

I've gotten my share of "yeah, but you don't sound Latin" comments, and it's not because I can't. I'm a Puerto Rican musician with over 20 years of timbale, conga, bongo, and drums experience. Personally, I get tired of the "same old, same old" old school breaks and signature pyrotechnics. Whenever I jam with other Latin musicians, for the most part, they are untrained, know very little rudiments (and if they do, it's by pure chance, not education on the matter) and they all play the timbales the same way. Lots of flair and antics...same breaks used on every salsa CD imaginable, etc.

I'm not against old school. Using old school breaks is great if you're trying to give a particular song that "authentic" sound. I'm making the claim, however, that if you want to edge out of that pack, you have to know rudiments. Tito De Gracia, Endel Dueno, Edwin Clemente, Ralph Irizarry...all of them have one thing in common: standard snare-drum rudiments. It is what allows them to A) speed up and clean their technique, B) have more hand independence, to do complicated rhythms, and C) enhance their solos beyond the tired old salsa tricks.

Listen to a lot of Latin music to get the standard timbale licks. you'll need them when "proving" yourself to other musicians of the genre. But, where you'll leave the salsa school behind is when you start doing things that they can't, because you have rudiments.

And even then, you'll still get the criticism. I can't tell you how many times i've heard the complaint that my timbale soloing sounds like I'm playing a snare drum. It makes me cringe. I do it on purpose...I don't want to do the same old, salsa solo patterns...and sadly, I play mostly with 40-60 year old players who want players to play it "the old way" all the time. Adding a bass drum or a snare on the side is already heresy for them.

Develop both things: the old school feel with the new school rudiments.

[franc]

the ol school of timbales solos is like a spiritual journey through mind and body. it moves your inner self . it makes your whole body tremble from tip of toe to top of your hair. is like a blessing, or force that touches all nerve senses of your body. it is a natural high. i don't feel the same with the drum rudiments solo timbales playing. anyone can explain that??and i know a lot about rudiments. love the syncopation within the clave feel.i uses the seven stroke abanico mostly, but also uses the 5 and 9 double strokes. i considered the ol skool method the best and most colorful in afro cuban, afro puertorican and salsa music. my best to all, aché!!! franc ♪

[Raymond]

My five cents about the latest matter brought:

Nothing wrong with the old school and nothing wrong with the new school. They are both right but they can be wrong depending in the arrangement and/or what the band you are playing requires.

Is the most "sabroso" the sound of the fat timbales, direct to the point breaks or intervensions and afinque that characterizes old arrangements. Nobody can say anything wrong about the solos from Oreste, Endel, Nicky, Tito P, Edgardo Morales etc, etc. (The "walking style" of soloing is great and these guys did it. Some of the dare to start what is going on right now with the new school).

The timbalero from the new school has to show more chops or likes to show more chops because the arrangers want it. (That does not say that the guys from old school did not have the chops. In fact they did. What happens is that they were not required to show them in the era they played and some incorporated some of those chops in the proper time and arrangements when they had the chance).

In essence there is no difference between old school and new school what sounds good is good always. How do you play and how comfortable you are going to sound depends what the leader of the band and/or arrangment of the song "requires" or "allows" you do. Of course, every musician has their own style and some accomodate to the playing required and some don't.

You can't play a "Cuando Te Veas" from Tito Puente, doing abanicos from left to right and doing lots of cymbal hits or doing lots of improvised syncopated "breaks"like they do now in arrangements because it does not sound right.


Regarding rudiments. If there is an instrument that eventually you are going to need your rudiments and your sense of independence is the timbales. (Not saying that with bongos and congas you will not need them but is easier to get by without them). I've seen congueros and bongoceros shying away from the timbale because of that. The way timables are played right now you will to have it in your arsenal in case you are required to show them.

Drummer backgroung? It helps, is easier for a full time drummer to get in the timbales and play (as long as he has his cascara and bell playing with the clave that I've seen is the problem with some drummers that do not have a good timbale player). Since the trap drum is more complicated and most of their techniques could be incorporated into the timbale, hence, most timbale players take on the trap drum to expand their technicques and have it in their arsenal in case they are required. (Example of things required lately by timbaleros, playing the timbale bell and the bongo bell too, use a snare, use a high hat, have a bass drum, do the clave...and to make things worst do some or the most at the same time....You have to have your independence ready when you are required to do so).

It sounds complicated but is easy.."less is more"...

Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1197470423