Cáscara question

[Mike]

Do you hit your timbales precisely at the very sides of the shells? I have seen this frequently, but I find the stick position somewhat awkward for me when doing so. I prefer to hit the shell area at 5 o´clock on the macho (w/right hand).
Any ideas or experiences to share?

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Mike,

when I play cascareo, I generally position myself more to the right towards the macho. I hit about 3 to 4 o'clock, to use your orientation. I hold the back of my hand pretty vertical. The back of the stick protrudes from below my palm (as opposed to under the forearm).

Thomas

[Mike]

Hi Thomas,
I can´t play in the 3to4 o´clock position because the lug is in the way. So for me it´s either 3 o´clock (the position I find a bit awkward) or fivish.

The question is also if you hit your cascara with the tip of the stick or with a greater part of the length. i´ve seen that frequently on youtube and elsewhere.

This stick technique provides greater volume I believe - but it doesn´t sound good (at least on my Afro timbales).

Cheers
Mike

[Thomas Altmann]

I'm going to be honest; these timbales have obviously been designed by someone who had no idea of what he was about to construct, and why, and for whom. I must express it in this drastic way. If you are not definitely in love with them, try to replace them. There are even economy lines of timbales that do a good job, like LP Matadors. I'm sure there are more.

Anyway, the shoulder of the stick sounds right. I think that's the way most timbaleros play either. Any skilled timbaleros on board?

TA

[Mike]

I'm going to be honest; these timbales have obviously been designed by someone who had no idea of what he was about to construct, and why, and for whom.

Thomas,
apart from the somewhat unlucky position of the lugs, these Timbales have not been constructed by just anyone.
After some research I found out that that they must have been hand made by John van Meulen in the 1980s who was
very much into the international Latin scene in both Europe and the USA, and I just can´t believe that this model that bears the badge "Nippy Noya"
was designed for nerds...
Yes, I have fallen in love with the sound of these brass drums, it´s very mellow with cutting rimshots. I´m aware of the fact that there are better models around, at school, e.g. I´ve got Meinl Marathon steel timbales and they are surely alright - but it´s a completely different sound.

Anyway, the shoulder of the stick sounds right.

Just to get you right: By shoulder you do not mean the tip, but appr. two inches of the stick hitting the shell at the side?
Anyway, I´m not much of a timbales expert, so please forgive me if what I ask for is just too obvious.

BTW I remember you have bought a terrific set of vintage Slingerland/leedy timbales yourself recently - how are they doing?

Regards,
Mike

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Mike,

John van Meulen - Wasn't he the guy who ran the "Supercussion" company in the Netherlands in the 80's?

I wonder whether Nippy ever played a Salsa gig with those tims.

Anyway, I obviously look a bit silly now, for trying to separate a loving couple in mistaken helpfulness. Never mind.

I never liked Meinl. Not a single product they made. I hated their catalogue, too, as well as their entire PR efforts. Accidentally I bought a fiberglass chekere from them. It broke. The bongos don't speak. They are heavy, expensive, and square like my grandma's furniture. In my opinion they should sell anything else, if it doesn't matter to them.

As to my Leedys; yes, I love to practice on them. You know, it's tune - detune - tune, and so forth: calf skins. I'm certainly never going to play them on any rowdy open-air gig with a band called "Trio Tropical" or so. It would be something for the studio perhaps, if it wasn't for a fruit juice jingle that has to be cut first-take within 15 minutes. They don't produce high level Mambo records in Hamburg, you know. I'm just happy to play them for myself, actually.

The shoulder of the stick is in English what I call in German the "Stocklänge", for the lack of a better word. I learned it that way. I wouldn't call myself a "timbales expert" either; I'm just trying to pass on the little that I know. Why not go to YouTube and watch timbales players more closely?

TA

[umannyt]

TA,

Have you had the chance to play any of the Meinl Luis Conte Signature timbales, especially the pure German brass model? They seem to be very-well made. If so, I'd appreciate your sincere opinion--positive or negative.

Thanks in advance,

[Mike]

John van Meulen - Wasn't he the guy who ran the "Supercussion" company in the Netherlands in the 80's?

Yes, you´re right,Thomas, he opened his own business after splitting up with Martin Cohen with whom he previously had collaborated in the 1960s.
That makes him somewhat the European counterpart to Martin Cohen. The Supercussion bongos I own, for example, are fantastic - of course they are somewhat a blueprint of LP generation I... Lateron the Afro company unfortunately kept to mass production and has been swallowed by Pearl.

I wonder whether Nippy ever played a Salsa gig with those tims.

I hardly think so, there is just the name on badge which does not tell much at all. I didn´t even know Nippy Noya is a timbales player, he is rather a famous conguero.

As to stick technique: I simply keep on watching and learning, trying to get the best sound I can out of these timbales. They are definitely not top of line from present point of view. Besides I only payed 66€ for them... I wish I had the money for a better pair, but I ain´t Recently there was a 1980s set of LP Palisade Park Tito Puente heavy brass timbales on German ebay which went off for 360 €... But even if those vintage timbales surely sound incredible - at the end of the day then I am primarily concerned about bongó and conga playing and must keep some of my money for living and the musical education of my sons.

All the best,
Mike

[Thomas Altmann]

@Manny:

When the Luis Conte model came out, they looked strange to me. I took a stick and checked the cascara, and I didn't like it; too resonant, too much metallic sustain. If you like that, fine; but I prefer a little drier sound.

To me, this sufficed to have my opinion about Meinl confirmed. I did not put each model to a detailed test. Consequently, I cannot say anything about your "German Brass" model. But - what do you think?

@Mike:

That's interesting about John and Martin Cohen. I didn't know that. The first generation LP bongos were fantastic. They also had goat skins regularly, as far as I know.

I also like the old LP Tito Puente timbales from stainless steel. I play Gon Bops COB, 13"-14". I have a 15", too, and for a time I played 14"-15" in our Salsa band "Ven pa'cá" (1990's; good band). I really like them. I also have a pair of Gon Bops timbalitos (waiting). I have a pair of Matadors because I can mount them on my Gretsch bass drum and tilt them. These vintage Leedys occupy a place on their own. The only European brand timbales I like are PJ. I haven't checked Tycoons or Tocas so far. I checked a pair of huge JCR timbalons once. They were heavy, and the sound was pretty "heavy", too.

If you earn a part of your money by playing and performing (as opposed to just teaching), bringing a good instrument on stage can contribute to your earnings indirectly (provided your playing matches the quality of your instrument).

Thomas

[Mike]

If you earn a part of your money by playing and performing (as opposed to just teaching), bringing a good instrument on stage can contribute to your earnings indirectly (provided your playing matches the quality of your instrument).

Thomas,
You are of course right about the fact that a well-sounding quality instrument on stage contributes to your earnings, perhaps sometimes even very directly.
But the problem is that I am not much the man on the stage performing myself much (just occasionally), because my emphasis lies on teaching and I rather put musical pieces together and my school percussion group performs them along with Latin classics or jazz and rock adaptations or other kinds of arrangement. This does not mean I take some effort to improve my abilities on timbales, for example, but i am realistic enough to realize that I do not have the talent to earn my living on playing alone; especially at the age of forty I won´t make it beyond some club gigs every now and then. But that´s okay, because teaching music is both fun and hard work, thus it fills my life - or I feel fulfilled...

Still, to play in the royal league of timbales would be a nice thing - your array of top-of-the-line models is really astounding! But then again - that´s no wonder because you are such a dedicated pro...

Greetings up north
from the very west
Mike

[Thomas Altmann]

Mike,

I love teaching, especially because I have performed such a lot under the most extraordinary conditions in my life, that I feel I have deserved to shift towards a more calm life; and what tears me up isn't even the playing but all the preconditions like organization, car driving etc. I don't feel the urge or the necessity to produce in front of other people as much as when I started.

But then on the other hand I play a gig, and when I come down from the stage, I see all the happy people in the audience, literally charged with energy - that's still the most fulfilling experience I can think of, nothing like it; that's my profession. I'm a lucky man.

As to the "dedicated pro"; yes, I suppose I am dedicated. As a professional, I have had such bad times, economically, that I was about to take another job to sustain myself (and my two sons!), but there was nothing I could have done. At one time I was handing out telephone books at a post office! In another forum I read that I am regarded one of the most respected percussionists in Europe. I wonder then why I never get any calls, apart from the bands that I am a member of. Even for gigs I could play better than anyone else (in my own esteem), they prefer to call people from abroad to play in my town! That's the reality. Not that this really takes away from my self-confidence; I tend to believe that there is no use for my particular talents in Europe. But that's what this "dedicated pro's" life looks like.

Thomas

[Mike]

My respect, Thomas,
and compliments to the endurance you displayed in your life. I know from some friends that especially percussionist of all sorts tend to have a hard life.
I don´t know if you have heard of Markus Paßlick, an extremely superb percussionist located in Münster. He played congas and all other things in the big band I was a "tromboning" member of too - 20 years ago. He has had his own jazz quintet over the years which earned fame in the region and beyond, and now he is a regular member of Götz Alsmann´s band and is renowned (if this job highly paid is still another question). But I can remember that initially he studied something, only eventually did it turn out that he could sustain himself after some hardship..
Well, this career is a bit like yours , admirable for its success part as well as moving concerning the difficulties top musicians are faced with.

I tend to believe that there is no use for my particular talents in Europe. But that's what this "dedicated pro's" life looks like.

This is rather bitter, maybe especially Germany (or Europe in general) does not appreciate or estimate professional percussionists to the same extent as other other musicians? I don´t know. The classical music scene basically suffers from the same phenomenon as far as I can see: Good people not being able to get better known because publicity stars from somewhere else have a name that fills the box offices...
Just one further foot-note: I believe a tour life with late night gigs, traveling, lousy hotels etc. etc. has its extremely strenous aspects, all of which teching usually does not. Still I wouldn´t call teaching "a calmer life". Of course it depends on the situation, who you teach and where etc.

I am afraid this has gotten a bit off-thread...
But nevertheless it was very nice chatting with you.
Have a nice weekend, Thomas!
All the best
Mike

[Thomas Altmann]

Thank you Mike - to you as well.

I have seen Markus perform with Götz Alsmann.

I corrected my first responding post above; of course the playing position in front of the macho timbal is the right side, not the left.

All the best,

Thomas

[umannyt]

@Manny:

When the Luis Conte model came out, they looked strange to me. I took a stick and checked the cascara, and I didn't like it; too resonant, too much metallic sustain. If you like that, fine; but I prefer a little drier sound.

To me, this sufficed to have my opinion about Meinl confirmed. I did not put each model to a detailed test. Consequently, I cannot say anything about your "German Brass" model. But - what do you think?

Thomas

Thomas,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it!

You said, "...they looked strange to me." I suspect that you're referring to the extensively hammered design/look of the cascara of the Luis Conte model.

Also, you said, "...too resonant, too much metallic sustain". I suspect that the Luis Conte model that you tested is the stainless steel model, which has a relatively brighter sound.

Further, you said, "...I prefer a little drier sound." Supposedly, the German brass model has a drier sound and the extensive hammering is meant to make the cascara sound even drier.

Respects,

[umannyt]

@Mike:

I play Gon Bops COB, 13"-14". I have a 15", too, and for a time I played 14"-15" in our Salsa band "Ven pa'cá" (1990's; good band). I really like them. I also have a pair of Gon Bops timbalitos (waiting).

Thomas

Thomas,

I'm just curious, what do you mean by COB? Does this mean "copper on brass"? Pardon my ignorance.

I, too, am interested in the Gon Bops timbales, particularly their latest Alex Acuna "brass-alloy" model. Gon Bops' catalog says that their brass-alloy material was "specially formulated to provide a dark, distinct cascara" sound but still with projection. Any opinion(s) on these timbales?

Thanks in advance,