Critique on Left hand for Timbales

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[ABAKUA]

In the late 70's Nicky Marerro was recruited to join Fania all stars in group to many egos and every one wanted solos . So in order to keep the clave in control Nicky introduced the wood block. Soon after that every one started to use the wood block and for got the essential use of left hand on timbales playing.

Hola Cuco,

Just wanted to better understand the above,

Are you saying:

* Nicky was the first timbalero in Fania to use the woodblock, which popularized in it New York and got the movement going thanks to Fania's large exposure in the US and subsequent international exposure? Thats very interesting, I wasnt sure of who popularized this in the US and set the benchmark for the development of that in New York.

Or are you saying:

* Nicky Marrero was the first timbalero to use a wood block (clave/jam block purpose instrument) in timbal/kit set up?
Because I have seen footage from 1957 belonging to my first teacher, of Guillermo Barreto using a wood block/cata like object infront of his pailas where he would play clave, while playing cascara on the side shells of the paila. Ritmo Oriental drummer Daniel Diaz also used a wood block during 1960-1965 during the bands development, most of the Ritmo Oriental members came from Elio Reve Snr's band, where the wood block or 'caña brava' had already been incorporated into the timbaleros set up, which flowed on through Reve, to Ritmo, to Van Van's Blas Egues, etc etc
Not sure who the first was, but I know for a fact is was in place and being done in Cuba a long time before ever happening in the US.


Back on topic regarding using the hand & fingers to produce the tone, this technique simply does not cut it in any of the modern day Cuban style bands.
Locally, it is widely looked down upon here, & only used with the straight salsa groups. The technique is hardly used at all in current day Cuba, it simply cannot be heard and is considered weak, the top respected exponents the likes of Samuel Formell (Van Van), Bonbom (Pupy), Roicel Riveron (Manolito Y Su Trabuco) all use the cuban mute technique to recreate the tone in order for it to be heard, the tone is widely used in modern Cuban Salsa/Timba/Son etc.
Enrique Pla also widely used the stick to create the mute tone, along with Oscarito Valdez while playing with Irakere, Betun widely used this same effect during his work with OPUS 13, Changuito would use the hand technique during the verse while playing cascara, and use the stick during the montuno. This is also highly common in current settings.

Pls dont misunderstand, I am not arguing with you or dissing the technique you mention, just presenting another side to the story.

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[RitmoBoricua]

Leedy,

What you are talking about is the timbalero playing the “2” and “4” with the left hand (if you are right handed). The “2” is muffled and the “4” is an open tone. No doubt this creates some “masacote gordo”. I think that now days with the influence of Jazz, R &B, Rock , Hip Hop, etc on Latin music the timbal players have incorporated more and more drum kit rudiments in their playing and forgotten on how to create an unbelievable groove with something so simple as hitting the timbal “hembra” on the “2” and “4”. They don’t call Willie Rosario “Mr. Swing” for nothing and the man barely ever solo. Good stuff Leedy.

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[RitmoBoricua]

Leedy,
Impressive you know, Willie Rosario barely ever solos, the man never does any kind of showboating but his orchestras and in particular his rhythm sections were super tight and swung like nobody’s business. If I am not mistaken that technique with the left hand is called “Pan Sobao”. Also I have seen players doing basically the same thing but hitting the macho on the “2” and the hembra on the “4” with the stick. Also If am not mistaken back in the days of the Palladium in NYC you were expected to play “Pan Sobao”.
To my ears that left hand technique was very important for Manny Oquendo (RIP) when he played them NCY style mozambiques. When he recorded “Bomboncito De Pozo” with La Perfecta you can hear clearly after the timbale solo and he is going to back to the mozambique groove that the first thing he established is the left hand on the “hembra” and after he has locked the left hand in with the rhythm section then he established the bells groove. Talk about swing and salsa………..

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[RitmoBoricua]

Wow so a "panadero" coined the technique's name.

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[Omelenko1]

Cuco,

Among the names you mentioned I don't see Orestes Vilato. Orestes, when it comes to proper timbal playing, wrote the book. His use of the left hand is very traditional, he is probably the best timbalero and Danzon player in the world. He revolutionized timbal playing in NYC in the early 70's, many tried to copy his approach, including Nicky. He provided a different alternative to the school that had been created by Puente. His style is/was very TIPICO when it has to be, but when he has to "kick ass", his solos are the tastiest in the business. Orgullo de Camaguey, Orestes Vilato, "en la paila se boto' ".

Dario

[RitmoBoricua]

Oh yeah Mr. Orestes Vilato, one of the truly great ones “Fuego En La Paila”. To me Nicky Marrero does not sound like Orestes. Nicky to me sounds like a cross between TP, Manny Oquendo and and jazz drummer. In my mind something that separated Nicky from other timbaleros was that he tune the hembra quite high almost like the macho another thing that I have noticed on later years is the use of regular drum sticks vice timbale sticks. There is a video of Nicky playing with Chucho Valdes I think in NYC where Nicky take this helluvah of a solo on timbales with brushes, a thing of beauty. Perhaps we can add to the list Humberto Morales, Pat Rodriguez and Orlando Marin too. I am sure we are missing quite a few. I am a fan of all of them.

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[Omelenko1]

I knew about Orestes starting out with Belisario Lopez. then he played with Fajardo before joining Ray. I'm a paersonal friend of Ore also of his late father, who worked with Cubana de Aviacion (Cuban Airlines) back in the 50's. Aside from timbales Orestes is one of the tasties bongoceros you will find. He always told me, "to get inaspiration on bongo' with contra tiempos and a strong sense of "clave", listen to Arsenio with "Papa Kila" on bongo'. I consider Orestes a rhythm genious. He certanly enhanced the Santana band when he was part of it.

Dario

[OLSONGO]

A couple of pics of Orestes to decorate the post, Met him with Santana and Armando in Kansas City, met Ray at the Village Vanguard on a Monday when Latin meets Jazz, on the bill Tito Puente, Patato and Ray Barreto. Here is a pic of Orestes , El Dandi y John Santos ...met el Dandi with Tito , first met John when he was a salesman in Height Ashbury Music in Frisco , I was looking for a Berimbau.

[OLSONGO]

Here Ray and Orestes in the back with his famous sideburns.
Peace
Olsongo