"cinquillo-based rhythms"

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Jorge,
He loved it. I found Chichito to be very open to experimenting. He was willing to play with anyone in just about any type of music. The night he tragically died in a car accident he was coming home from playing a straight-ahead jazz gig.
-David

[tamboricua]

Hi Jorge,
He loved it. I found Chichito to be very open to experimenting. He was willing to play with anyone in just about any type of music. The night he tragically died in a car accident he was coming home from playing a straight-ahead jazz gig.
-David

Thanks for sharing...

Best,

Jorge Ginorio

[Thomas Altmann]

David:

The 3-2, 2-3 terminology signifies harmony’s dominance over rhythm in popular music; the chord progression is the prime referent rather than the rhythmic progression of clave.

It signifies a metrical as opposed to a clave approach, nothing more. I believe that - in most cases - I can hear a metrical "1" without any European chord changes, but with nothing more than a unison melody line of an Afro-Cuban song. There are exceptions, like in the Arará repertory for instance. But even and especially in those difficult songs, it helps me, as a first step, to find out the metric reference before I concentrate on the clave relation. It helps me as a European musician to achieve equivalent results with Afro-Cuban musicians, even if I went my own way to arrive there. I'm afraid that for many people who come off of my cultural environment, but without my many years of musical experience in the genre, this approach is actually the only chance.

A lot of 2-3 popular music has an on-beat emphasis on the downbeat of the two-side. Consequently, many drummers consider this on-beat emphasis to indicate that a rhythm is in 2-3, that is, that an on-beat emphasis is the indicator of "one". I held this misunderstanding for many years myself, and have encountered countless drummers who also have this confusion.

It's a in the rhythmic balance between two bars in relation to each other, where we can pick up signals as to how the clave could be placed, or rather, how the melody might be placed over the clave, provided the arranger or musician was considering the clave and knew how to deal with it. An emphasis on "1" in juxtaposition to a "4+" or "1+" on the other side can be an indication in this case. An indication, nothing more. Anyway, if I were the arranger, you could rely on hints like this. I cannot write music, though (except for percussion scores).

But we're getting off-subject again.

Perhaps converts are the most obnoxious too.

What do you mean, you are fishing for what?

TA

[davidpenalosa]

Thomas and all other readers of this thread, I've started a new thread on the subject of 3-2, 2-3. I'll post my response there.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

I consider the two-celled rhythms to be in a sense, further evolved than the single-celled ones.

From what I’ve been able to gather, the geographic area in Africa where one finds two-celled rhythms (rhythms "in-clave" to put it in Cuban terms) stretches in a diagonal belt across the continent from Senegal in the North West, across the Congo Basin in the tropical center, to Mozambique in the South East. The iconic standard bell pattern:

X.X.XX.X.X.X

X..X..XX..X.X..X

- is found at the center of this geographic belt. As one moves out of the belt, the music tends to be based on simpler cross-rhythms of a single-celled structure (3:2 and tresillo),

X.X.X.

X..X..X.

- or even more rudimentary, offbeat motifs with little cross-rhythm.

.XX.XX.XX.XX

..XX..XX..XX..XX

However, I believe that even within the repertoire of those ethnic groups with the most complex rhythms, like the Yoruba, one finds some single-celled structures.

In the myriad musics of the Diaspora the degree of African rhythmic retention can be reasonably measured by observing the presence or absence of two-celled rhythmic structures. The use of the standard bell pattern in the New World is confined to those former colonies where the greatest amount of traditional African culture was preserved and adapted: Cuba, Haiti and Brazil.

A lot of Diaspora music has a simpler single-celled structure. Tresillo is the most common rhythmic motif used in Caribbean music. Some music like Jamaican reggae exhibits only remnants of African rhythmic sensibilities. Reggae prominently features an offbeat motif (the guitar’s skank part), one of the few African-based components of its rhythmic structure.

..XX..XX..XX..XX

Tresillo has long been a staple of African-American music, from the foot stomping and clapping of ring shout churches, to drum and fife ensembles, the cakewalk, ragtime and early jazz. Although certain pieces from that era, such as Scott Joplin’s "Maple Leaf Rag", contain some clave-like phrases, I don’t consider them to be "in-clave". Such phrases are the exception rather than the rule.

Yet, it’s almost like single-celled music wants to "evolve" into two-celled structures. After over a century of single-celled structures in a wide variety of music, African-American music naturally adapted two-celled motifs once Cuban music, specifically the mambo, reached the North American mainstream. From the 1940’s on, you find clave and clave-based motifs appearing in the music of New Orleans, R&B, jazz and rock & roll. The use of clave motifs continued on with soul, funk and today’s hip-hop.

I think that even in single-celled rhythms (two-beat cycles), it’s quite natural to phrase in groups of four beats. Therefore, it’s often difficult to discern whether a rhythm is single or two-celled unless you are very familiar with that rhythm. In the case of bomba sicá, I’m not familiar enough with the music to make that judgement.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

David,

I think you hit a gold mine here (referring to the last two paragraphs of your post).

Do you know at what time the New Orleans "Second Line" Parade Beat changed from up-beat to the familiar clave-like pattern:

| ..x..x.. | x..x..x. | ?

This was also the left hand comping figure of N.O. drummer Freddie Kohlman.

I feel that Jazz, New Orleans Jazz guaranteed, has always been two-bar structured. New Orleans Jazz rhythm traditionally has a heavy beat "4" every second measure, resembling the Cuban "ponche" in 2/3 clave. Listen to Kansas City Jazz riffs à la Count Basie. Or Oscar Peterson style comping:

xx | -x--x--- | x--x--xx | or :

xx | xxx-x--- | x--x--xx | .

But it's all 2/3.

I have been playing Traditional Jazz a lot in my life. It's funny; even the corniest German housewife gets restless on her seat when a rocking Parade Beat comes up in place of a straight-ahead Four- or Two Beat. Although it is obviously more complex rhythmically. There must be something special to it.

Thomas

P.S.: By the way - did you ever compare a half-time cinquillo with Son Clave? Only one stroke differs. -TA

[davidpenalosa]

Thomas:>>Do you know at what time the New Orleans "Second Line" Parade Beat changed from up-beat to the familiar clave-like pattern:
| ..x..x.. | x..x..x. | ?
This was also the left hand comping figure of N.O. drummer Freddie Kohlman.<<

me:
I don’t know the answer concerning that particular pattern, but I think you will find this interesting. According to Wynton Marsalis (the documentary "Jazz" Vol 1. 2000), Buddy Bolden was the first person to be identified as a jazz musician. His band began playing in New Orleans in 1896. Marsalis says that Bolden is credited with creating the "big four", the first syncopated bass drum pattern to deviate from the standard on-the-beat march. The essence of the "big four" is what’s known as the habanera or tango rhythm (tresillo combined with the backbeat):

X.XX.X.

In the DVD Marsalis vocally demonstrates the bass drum part of the "big four":

|X...X...X..XX.X.|| ....X...X..XX.X.||

Once the pattern repeats, beat 1 is silent. It’s definitely a two-celled pattern. The first cell is the backbeat and the second is the habanera rhythm. Because of the rest in the first half, this pattern could be considered to be in 3-2. On the other hand, the un-embellished backbeat in the first half would naturally fit with a 2-3 sequence. While this pattern demonstrates a "re-Africanization" of the music and clearly contains two cells, I’m hesitant to say that it definitely expresses a clave sensibility.

The instructional DVD "New Orleans Drumming" with Earl Palmer, Artlin Riley, Johnny Vidacovich and Herman Ernerst demonstrate more variations in this early New Orleans style of drumming. However, I’ve only watched it a few times, leaving a more thorough study for another time.

>>I feel that Jazz, New Orleans Jazz guaranteed, has always been two-bar structured. New Orleans Jazz rhythm traditionally has a heavy beat "4" every second measure, resembling the Cuban "ponche" in 2/3 clave.<<

me:
and the "big four" too.

>>Listen to Kansas City Jazz riffs à la Count Basie. Or Oscar Peterson style comping:

xx | -x--x--- | x--x--xx | or :

xx | xxx-x--- | x--x--xx | .

But it's all 2/3.<<

me:
I see what you mean. That’s very cool. Can you recommend some tunes where I could clearly hear that?

>>I have been playing Traditional Jazz a lot in my life. It's funny; even the corniest German housewife gets restless on her seat when a rocking Parade Beat comes up in place of a straight-ahead Four- or Two Beat. Although it is obviously more complex rhythmically. There must be something special to it.<<

Indeed!

>>did you ever compare a half-time cinquillo with Son Clave? Only one stroke differs.<<

Absolutely. If you play consecutive 4/4 cross-beats from beat 1 to beat 4, you end up with a pattern that also differs from son clave by one stroke:

X..X..X..X..X..(.)

-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David,

the "Big Four" is exactly what I was referring to. Marsalis and Herlin Riley use the term; probably it is staple N.O. vocabulary.

The clave sensibility becomes apparent in the modern style Parade Beat. The basic patterns are:



For Count Basie riff themes see "One O'Clock Jump" and "Jumpin' at the Woodside". But the themes may vary. Some of them establish one clave feel and then change to the opposite in the bridge or the subsequent 16 bars, like Lester Young's famous "Tickle Toe" (main motif in 3/2). It's in the often improvised riffs under the solos, or in Basie's accompaniment where everything falls into a 2/3 feel. See Basie's signature closing "Count - Ba - sie":

| ----x--- | x--x---- |

Other Jazz numbers that come to my mind are Sweets Edison's "Jive at Five", later Jimmy Giuffre's "Four Brothers", which is almost perfect 2/3 throughout, except for some kicks in the shout chorus. Or what about Glenn Miller, "Pennsylvania 65000"?

I cannot really point out one particular number for Oscar Peterson. He plays it every once in a while on the lot of recordings he made for Verve. But there is one tune, again by the Count, called "Tally-Ho, Mr. Basie!" with the Kansas City Seven on Impulse that has exactly the same rhythmics. As soon as I find a number where you can hear it most clearly, I tell you the title.

Another thing that came to my mind is the dance. In Lindy Hop (the traditional Swing Jazz dance), as well as in Tap Dance, the two-bar structure is so deeply anchored in the dancers' understanding that they actually count 8 instead of 4 or 2x4 beats. My girl friend is a tap dancer, and I often play for Lindy Hop dances and workshops, so that's why I know this. Right now I'm trying to call Max Pollak, a New York resident tap dancer originally from Vienna, to verify it.

Max Pollak, by the way, is an interesting person, as he started playing drums and dancing in Austria and moved to New York to become very successful, particularly in "Afro-Cuban Tap", which he created. He is tapping, singing and doing body percussion at the same time, and it sounds amazing. As a matter of fact, since one of his visits and encounters with the Munequitos de Matanzas, the Munequitos incorporated a Rumba Tap number in their performance, which they had picked up from Max!

Greetings,

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

Thomas,
Thanks so much for that chart and those song titles. Where is that chart from? I'd like to buy a copy of the book. Later on I'll look for the songs on itunes. I've had very good luck with downloading songs when people cite tunes I don't have.

I noticed that the first five bass drum strokes in that chart are the same five consecutive 4/4 cross-beats I wrote in my last post.

X..X..X..X..X..(.)

This is very intriguing!
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David,

there is no book that this chart is taken from. On my web page I wrote an article about Jazz, Drums, and Tap Dance, where it appears. It is in German, but I have more charts there, for example rhythmic transcriptions of various Time Steps and the famous Shim Sham Shimmy. So even if you don't understand the text, it takes you to those links.

I noticed that the first five bass drum strokes in that chart are the same five consecutive 4/4 cross-beats I wrote in my last post. X..X..X..X..X..(.)

Yes, but there's more to it. Even if it resembles the son clave in 3/2, the actual clave feel in this one is 2/3, following the snare drum part. What is really intriguing, is the fact that the New Orleans bass drum line reflects the linear conga drum melody in the Conga Habanera, with the Tres-Dos part on the 2-side, and the other Conga part, of which I don't know the name, that plays 3-4-1 starting on the 3-side of the clave. Same feel: 2/3:

| x--x--x- | ----x-x- |

The Conga, especially the Conga Habanera, is to me one of the principal resources in the "book of precedents" for the clave. If we add a bombo ("2+") to the above "conga drum melody", and add one note more to the tumbador that plays the open tone on the "4" ("4+"), we obtain the bass figure of Juan Formell's "Por encima del nivel":

xx-x- ||: x--x--xx | ---xx-x- | (here's that smiley again)

There's no other way to deduct the clave direction (2/3) in this bass riff. In this one, or the well-known Cachao tumbao:

| x-----x- | ---xx-x- |

Funny though that if we moved the rhythmic pattern of the Formell bass line from the low register into the trumpet section, we would feel the clave crossed. (Wouldn't we?)

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

Thomas:>>feel: 2/3:
| x--x--x- | ----x-x- |

The Conga, especially the Conga Habanera, is to me one of the principal resources in the "book of precedents" for the clave. If we add a bombo ("2+") to the above "conga drum melody", and add one note more to the tumbador that plays the open tone on the "4" ("4+"), we obtain the bass figure of Juan Formell's "Por encima del nivel":
xx-x- ||: x--x--xx | ---xx-x- |

There's no other way to deduct the clave direction (2/3) in this bass riff. In this one, or the well-known Cachao tumbao:
| x-----x- | ---xx-x- |<<

Hi Thomas,
I agree that those bass lines are in 2-3, but not nessesarily the first figure. In order to analyze a particular rhythmic figure, I attempt to reduce it to its fundamentals. I consider the fundamental of the two bass lines to be:

| X--X--X-|---X--X- |

… which is definitely a common 2-3 figure.

However, I think the fundamental of the first figure is:

| X--X--X-|----X--- |

… which is an abstraction of:

| X--X--X-|--X-X--- | 3-2 clave

The first figure looks like the onbeat strokes of the second measure have merely been displaced, but the on-beat quality of the two-side is maintained:

| x--x--x- | ----x-x- |

It’s true that if you "add a bombo" to that figure, it will share characteristics with the bass lines, but it does not have that significant fundamental. There seems to be two basic ways in which a pattern expresses clave sensibilities. The first is as an embellishment of the clave figure - a "clave motif". The second is as an offbeat/onbeat motif, where the three-side begins with an offbeat and the two-side begins with an onbeat. I see the first figure as 3-2 expressed the first way and the bass lines as 2-3 expressed in the second way. If that first figure actually included bombo I would have a different opinion of it.

>>Funny though that if we moved the rhythmic pattern of the Formell bass line from the low register into the trumpet section, we would feel the clave crossed. (Wouldn't we?)>>

How does that part being in the lower register affect your analysis? Don’t bass lines conform to the same clave "rules" as other parts?
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David,

The first figure looks like the onbeat strokes of the second measure have merely been displaced, but the on-beat quality of the two-side is maintained:

| x--x--x- | ----x-x- |

It’s true that if you "add a bombo" to that figure, it will share characteristics with the bass lines, but it does not have that significant fundamental. There seems to be two basic ways in which a pattern expresses clave sensibilities. The first is as an embellishment of the clave figure - a "clave motif". The second is as an offbeat/onbeat motif, where the three-side begins with an offbeat and the two-side begins with an onbeat. I see the first figure as 3-2 expressed the first way and the bass lines as 2-3 expressed in the second way. If that first figure actually included bombo I would have a different opinion of it.

I share your opinion on the two different clave sensibilities. In fact, I dare to call these the two principal rules of thumb on Clave. An arranger may follow either the first or the second "rule", in case these two conflict with each other. This is up to his taste and style.

I also agree with you on the clave direction being 3/2 in the above example. I remember the "Ban Ban Quere" intro (with the "4" in the first bar missing). It wouldn't really sound "forbidden" to me if it was the other way around, but in analysis, I would tend more towards 3/2 either (now that you are saying it). But there was a time when my feeling was based more on the 3-4-1 pattern of the Conga drum part, and back then I would have favored the 2/3 interpretation.

I strongly believe that the deciding factors for a clave sensibility are listening experience and playing practice, both of which constitute a living tradition that is changeable according to the time and place of music making. I would never extract a hard rule from my research and then postulate that the rule replaces the listening and the feeling. That's why I say, the law book of Clave is a book of precedents. It is based on history and changes with history.

What about:

| x--x--x- | -x--x-x- |

Could you also hear this figure as 3/2? To me, this is the point where the balance clearly tips towards 2/3. Just my feeling.

How does that part being in the lower register affect your analysis? Don’t bass lines conform to the same clave "rules" as other parts?

That's the question. I don't really know. If clave is in fact based on listening experience?

The more I think about it, the less secure I am about everything. This is probably the point where an arranger should let his heart speak, and that's it.

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

[/quote][quote="Thomas Altmann"]
What about:
| x--x--x- | -x--x-x- | <<

Hi Thomas ,
That's a tricky one. You have presented what I consider to be a grey area; is it a clave motif or an offbeat/onbeat motif?. There's two ways to distill the second measure to its fundamental. One is as the two-side:

| x--x--x- | ----x--- | 3-2

The other would be as a fragment of the particular displaced tresillo played by rumba quinto and associated with the three-side:

| x--x--x- | -x--x--- | 2-3

My guess is that in popular music it would most likely appear in a 2-3 sequence.

PS - Funny how the cinquillo thread keeps returning to the topic of 3-2, 2-3.
-David