clave thread

[davidpenalosa]

I am reposting my latest comments from "Keeping track of a solo's length" here at the request of the thread's original poster in case anybody wants to continue discussing these clave issues.

Jorge,
I share your fascination with bonkó. The basic attack-point pattern of most lead drum parts is one clave cycle. However all the lead drum parts I’m aware of are expected to also play longer phrases that span two, three and even more claves. I think most of these longer phrases correspond, or at one time corresponded to specific dance steps. Bonkó is no exception. A lot of bonkó phrase begin on the subdivision immediately before beat 1. What starting point in clave are you more “used to?” I assume you are referring to rhythms other than abakuá.

Tonio,
I am unaware of any folkloric dance drumming from Africa, Cuba or Brazil that breaks clave. Dance drumming is drumming that accompanies dance, so the bata’s oru igbodu would not be included in this category.

The breaking of clave in popular music is another matter. There are examples of clave being broken in some of the earliest recordings of the son from the 1920s. Composers had varying degrees of clave consciousness and it was usually up to the rhythm section (often the drummers) to fix any discrepancies. I guess as far as your listening experience goes, some of those “clave band-aids” (cierres) don’t do the trick.

The clave concept was developed in popular music, but there are examples of breaking clave since the music was first recorded. On the other hand, in folkloric dance drumming the concepts of “clave theory” are not a part of the tradition, and yet the music remains 100% in-clave. That’s ironic.
-David

[jorge]

David, how are you doing? I was referring to the first beat of clave where most solos in salsa would start. Obviously, if you are playing in 2-3, it would be the corresponding downbeat of the first measure of the 4 bar phrase, however you want to call it.

Many times I have asked some of the Cuban folkloric musicians where the downbeat was and they say they don't know what I am talking about. They don't even really have a word for downbeat, "golpe fuerte" was the closest Minini and I could agree on for describing the downbeat. At first I thought it was just a deficiency in my Spanish and Lucumi, or they were being secretive. After a few discussions and a lot of thought, I realized that they just don't conceptualize their phrasing strictly in 4 beat measures or even numbers of bars. A song can start on just about any beat of the clave or in between. What it has that makes it sound right and "in clave" rather than out of clave or just strangely syncopated, I can't describe. Some of the bonko phrases do this frequently, maybe that is part of what makes them so fascinating.

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Jorge,
This is a topic that I have a great interest in.

In music, beat is a regular unit of musical time, not a stroke. Although it feels natural to think of a clave stroke as a "clave beat", because you are "beating" claves in a sense, it's important to make a distinction between a beat (an abstract unit of musical time) and a stroke (a sounding, attack-point, musical event). I believe that tiempo is Spanish for 'beat' and golpe is Spanish for 'stroke.' So, beat (or onbeat) and offbeat in Spanish are tiempo and contratiempo.

Downbeat is often used mistakenly for beat of onbeat. Downbeat is the first beat of a measure. So, if clave is written in two measures there's two downbeats per clave and if it's written in one measure, there's one downbeat.

I have never experienced or heard of an experience where a Cuban folklorist correctly answered a question when it was presented in terms of beats or counting. However, wouldn't asking where clave is serve the same function? If the folkloric master can clap clave over the particular rhythm or part in question, you would have all your proper bearings since you can tap your foot (to the beats) while playing clave.

The chief rhythmic characteristic of the bonkó is its counter-clave structure. The most important strokes occur in-between the strokes of clave's three-side. It's as if the second of half of the standard 12 bell was being played on the three-side. That's how I describe it. It took me years to get comfortable with playing bonkó phrases. I love that drum part.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Jorge:

You asked me for specific Los Van-Van numbers that I think are out of clave. The facts that I haven't listened to those records for a long time, and that it takes me a certain effort to put them on the turntable again, say something about the effect which out-of-clave music has on me and a number of other listeners, too. Now, I do listen to a lot of music that does not try or pretend to be in clave, and I certainly enjoy listening to Miles and Coltrane and to a couple of Pop productions. I guess it's because I feel a kind of disappointment when I listen to music that apparently sets me on a clave track and then suddenly messes everything up, destabilizing or weakening the clave flow by crossing it, turning it around, or playing the wrong breaks in wrong places. I lose my interest immediately. I get a feeling as if somebody wanted to put me on.

For this reason I did not listen to the entire record "El negro no tiene na" again. I listened to the first two tracks and put it back on the shelf. You may also take Los Van-Van's famous hit "Por encima del nivel (Sandunguera)". I had to play this number several times, and I remember there was one place where the clave was interrupted.

The earliest recorded example for a broken clave that I can recall is "Y tu que has hecho", composed by Eusebio Delfin and recorded by the Sexteto Habanero between 1926 and 1931, according to the cover text of "La Historia del Son Cubano / The Roots of Salsa Vol. 2" (Folklyric Records 9054). And I'm not mentioning the numerous Danzones that turn the clave around for isolated sections, like flute solo- or violin trio themes between introductions. For some reason, however, these cases don't bother me as much.

Greetings,

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

Thomas,
Thanks for bringing "Y tu que has hecho" to my attention. Timba scholar Kevin Moore turned me onto the Los Van Van tunes "Barriste Con él" and "Qué pasa con ella." They break clave too.
-David

[pcastag]

Jorge:

You asked me for specific Los Van-Van numbers that I think are out of clave. The facts that I haven't listened to those records for a long time, and that it takes me a certain effort to put them on the turntable again, say something about the effect which out-of-clave music has on me and a number of other listeners, too. Now, I do listen to a lot of music that does not try or pretend to be in clave, and I certainly enjoy listening to Miles and Coltrane and to a couple of Pop productions. I guess it's because I feel a kind of disappointment when I listen to music that apparently sets me on a clave track and then suddenly messes everything up, destabilizing or weakening the clave flow by crossing it, turning it around, or playing the wrong breaks in wrong places. I lose my interest immediately. I get a feeling as if somebody wanted to put me on.

For this reason I did not listen to the entire record "El negro no tiene na" again. I listened to the first two tracks and put it back on the shelf. You may also take Los Van-Van's famous hit "Por encima del nivel (Sandunguera)". I had to play this number several times, and I remember there was one place where the clave was interrupted.

The earliest recorded example for a broken clave that I can recall is "Y tu que has hecho", composed by Eusebio Delfin and recorded by the Sexteto Habanero between 1926 and 1931, according to the cover text of "La Historia del Son Cubano / The Roots of Salsa Vol. 2" (Folklyric Records 9054). And I'm not mentioning the numerous Danzones that turn the clave around for isolated sections, like flute solo- or violin trio themes between introductions. For some reason, however, these cases don't bother me as much.

Greetings,

Thomas

Does it really bother you so much that you can't listen to it? It's music, if it sounds good (and Van Van usually does) why would it bother you if it breaks clave? I'll bet it doesn't bother the Cuban dancers! That's almost becoming too analytical for me

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Paolo,

first, I don't care about what Cuban dancers feel (and they do not all feel the same), or Hawaiian or Danish dancers. I'm not trying to be Cuban or like a Cuban or to judge by Cuban measures; I got beyond that.

Neither am I saying that this is bad music. It is played well, and I'm sure there are people who enjoy it. I was just describing what I felt, and I'm not a critic. I am involved as an active musician who is schooled to listen analytically as well as emotionally.

From my previous post you may understand that my reaction was mostly emotional. I'm not sitting there checking music whether it's in clave or not. But I do have expectations as a listener, especially when guys start to use cáscara and other typical clave-related patterns. I am only analytical enough to explain what bores me and put my finger on it.

I know that I can be drastic at times when I really want to make myself be understood, but there is no intention to offend you from my side. My only intention in this post is to make a clear statement, as far as I am concerned.

Greetings,

Thomas

P.S.: There are rumours that we'll come to Corpus Christi for the Jazz Festival next year, with Joe Gallardo's Latino Blue. I'll let you know!